Question about bootlegs

[brent]

When you say "not many" you are saying to me, "not many people I know." Because there are people using the internet, like I said yetarerday, way over 34 million people on the internet there.

People wanting old Petra items are so few in relation to the whole population of the world that buys music, or bought the old stuff when it was new, that items are going to be hard to find no matter where you live. Don't feel bad about that.

As for needing a credit card to buy on the internet, that is not so. You can investigate on the web, find the contact information for the supplier of a CD/Tape, etc. Take your currency to your bank, have them write a money order, and send it to the supplier in the mail. Gosh it really is not hard to buy anything in the world. People buy nuclear material on the ineternet, surely people can sneak a CD under the radar.

Again, think outside of the box. Have your church get an order together, and contact a church here to fill it. Contact the Methodist churches that come down every summer and build houses. They can bring them in. Maybe for free.

[epdc]

no brent, ACTUALLY when i said "not many people" I mean "not many people".
I know my country Brent.

Brent, please take out your american reality and get in to the latinamerican reality. People really don�t know what you know. For example, you told me about getting info on the internet of where to send the money without using a credit card, hey man, I didn�t think of it.

Here in mexico people buy stuff when they go to the store and that�s it, people don�t trsut in the internet or catalogs or phone sells. Here the mail system is not very good, unless you pay a big amount of money for sending your things "safely", here is very common to see stuff "lost" in the mail. People just don�t trust in those things.

and yeah, your idea of contacting a church on the states for getting stuff is a good idea if the material is not available here. Though i gotta tell ya, if someone has a copy, people will go with the copy hehehehehe

[Kirkman]

When you say "not many" you are saying to me, "not many people I know." Because there are people using the internet, like I said yetarerday, way over 34 million people on the internet there.

Of course there are people using the internet. But HOW are they using it? Most of them get it through public access (internet cafe, universities, libraries) which is inherently unsafe for making financial transactions. And, as I said before, you are not buying from iTunes without a credit card. Credit cards are unobtainable for the majority.

As for needing a credit card to buy on the internet, that is not so. You can investigate on the web, find the contact information for the supplier of a CD/Tape, etc. Take your currency to your bank, have them write a money order, and send it to the supplier in the mail. Gosh it really is not hard to buy anything in the world.

Sure, this is creative thinking outside the box. But how realistic is it for non-English-speakers? Sure, just visit the English record label website and find the contact information for a supplier/distributor. Then write to them in English with your request and mail a check. I'm sorry, that's not going to work for the vast majority of people.

Here's the truth: The infrastructure of many latin american countries is extremely lacking. Bolivia, for example, has a horrendous mail system. Mailing packages from the U.S. to there is an exercise in futility. Mail is not delivered to individual street addresses in most cities. In fact, in most cities, many of the houses don't even HAVE addresses because of the terrible government system.

The financial institutions are no better. They often will not deal with people who have little money. Racism and classism are very strong in latin america.

The truly dedicated can and will find a way to get albums legally. But for the vast majority there is no simple way to do it.

(and the caveat here is obvious - there are some cities and countries that have more developed retail industries. But this varies widely across the region and in many places there is NO retail industry but the street trade)

--Josh

[executioner]

I am in total agreement with EPDC and Kirkman here. Brent you don't realize the Latin way of thinking. They trust no one! The mail system is horrible I'll give you an example. Maria and I will send letters, photos, and lots of things to family in Mexico but we have no assurance of them ever getting it. They will also send things to us and it takes 6 weeks or more before we get it, if we get it. There are alot of cherished photos that were lost because of it. Also if you look like you are not rich most banks and other services like the post offices won't even deal with you. If there are 34M users of the internet down in Mexico alot of those could be US citizens. In the last 5 years close to 8 million people have retired in the US and moved to Mexico, We have bought land down there and will probably retire there in 30 years. Property is hot right now because it is so cheap and Americans are buying it up very fast. They say in 10 yrs Mexico will take over Florida and Arizona as the retirement place for US citizens. I would say probably 99% of those internet users you clam are from the US. For these reasons alone I do not blame anyone from Mexico and these type of places making copies of CD's. I think Bob and John would feel the same way, because all what matters is someone is hearing the Gospel right?

You might be sending some of PDC CD's down there but are buyers actually getting them would be my question.

[brent]

I am in total agreement with EPDC and Kirkman here. Brent you don't realize the Latin way of thinking. They trust no one! The mail system is horrible I'll give you an example. Maria and I will send letters, photos, and lots of things to family in Mexico but we have no assurance of them ever getting it. They will also send things to us and it takes 6 weeks or more before we get it, if we get it. There are alot of cherished photos that were lost because of it. Also if you look like you are not rich most banks and other services like the post offices won't even deal with you. If there are 34M users of the internet down in Mexico alot of those could be US citizens. In the last 5 years close to 8 million people have retired in the US and moved to Mexico, We have bought land down there and will probably retire there in 30 years. Property is hot right now because it is so cheap and Americans are buying it up very fast. They say in 10 yrs Mexico will take over Florida and Arizona as the retirement place for US citizens. I would say probably 99% of those internet users you clam are from the US. For these reasons alone I do not blame anyone from Mexico and these type of places making copies of CD's. I think Bob and John would feel the same way, because all what matters is someone is hearing the Gospel right?

You might be sending some of PDC CD's down there but are buyers actually getting them would be my question.

1. I know about the corruption and the theft down there.
2. I get paid on the front side. If the distributor doesn't get the discs, then they have to buy more I guess.
3. I think you are wrong about what Bob and John think. I have talked to John about this very issue. It's great that people hear the gospel. But how is it ok to steal for that to happen? It's isn't Jesus Christ broke no laws, neither should we. You can't make a solid case for bootlegged CDs = saved souls. I don't think God honors any sin, no matter how trivial to US, under the guise of ministry. Maybe I should buy a hooker when I am in Nashville so that I could witness to her during the act.

[believerindeed]

When I started this post I was really meaning something kinda different from what the discussion has turned out to be....I have bought practicaly every one of Petra cds legally (some even two or three times)......I have never downloaded anything off of anywhere and don't believe that's right at all......I was speaking more from a fan perspective in terms of acquiring things that have never been released just to have and enjoy for my own personal use. For example, I wish I could have a live vhs from each tour just to reflect back on.....I just bought the new dvd which is awesome, but it would be neat to kinda go back in time so to speak....and I don't think that would be "stealing" anything from anybody. I am just a fan who wants to enjoy the music that I love. I would never want to take any money out of the band's hands at all.....

[epdc]

you would get a hooker for witness to her during the act? is that your example?, you can�t compare that with bootlegged cds :s

for me it would be a sin if the material is available but still people make copies. That�s not the case in latinamerica. Some things are not available or are out of reach economically speaking, JUST LIKE THAT!!!!!!.

ya know, a pastor of a church i used to go to said once: ya know we record the the Bible studies and we sell them right??? if you want to give this study to many people you can buy one of our tapes and make all the copies you want, as long many people can hear what we are saying here, what God is saying here."

I�m sure Bob and John don�t like copies, they would prefer people buy their material OF COURSEEEEE which band doesn�t want that??? but I�m sure they must be glad to know many people has been blessed through their music.

Look, maybe I�m wrong or maybe you are wrong, well, i think we should respect our points of view and that�s it

[greenchili]

Don't you get it?

It's not a distribution problem.

It's the fans problem for not thinking outside the box, and digging thru every nook and cranny, checking every fox hole, jumping thru a hope, sing a song, do a dance, and generally finding a needle in a haystack.





And were all good for nothing dirty scoundrels if anyone says otherwise.

[brent]

you would get a hooker for witness to her during the act? is that your example?, you can�t compare that with bootlegged cds :s

for me it would be a sin if the material is available but still people make copies. That�s not the case in latinamerica. Some things are not available or are out of reach economically speaking, JUST LIKE THAT!!!!!!.

ya know, a pastor of a church i used to go to said once: ya know we record the the Bible studies and we sell them right??? if you want to give this study to many people you can buy one of our tapes and make all the copies you want, as long many people can hear what we are saying here, what God is saying here."

1. I can compare the hooker to CD theft because in God's eyes, there is no sin different from the next. We are called to keep the methods of ministry pure. I wouldn't give a pal a stolen CD any more than I would a stolen Bible, a stole track, or deliver the message of Christ from a stolen church van.

2. So it is OK to steal something that is economically out of reach? Especially Christian materials? You never have a good biblical reference for this. What about a car? You can't afford a new car lets say. Can you take it? A car or a CD is not the issue. It is the act, and the deed done in the heart that is the issue.

3. That's fine if your pastor wants to have people copy it for free. I like Rick Warren's idea. Give it all sermons away for free. Give all ideas away for free. All of it comes from God, so who is anyone to put a price on it, aside from the raw goods expenses, and paying a tithe to the ministry.

[executioner]

you would get a hooker for witness to her during the act? is that your example?, you can�t compare that with bootlegged cds :s

for me it would be a sin if the material is available but still people make copies. That�s not the case in latinamerica. Some things are not available or are out of reach economically speaking, JUST LIKE THAT!!!!!!.

ya know, a pastor of a church i used to go to said once: ya know we record the the Bible studies and we sell them right??? if you want to give this study to many people you can buy one of our tapes and make all the copies you want, as long many people can hear what we are saying here, what God is saying here."

1. I can compare the hooker to CD theft because in God's eyes, there is no sin different from the next. We are called to keep the methods of ministry pure. I wouldn't give a pal a stolen CD any more than I would a stolen Bible, a stole track, or deliver the message of Christ from a stolen church van.

2. So it is OK to steal something that is economically out of reach? Especially Christian materials? You never have a good biblical reference for this. What about a car? You can't afford a new car lets say. Can you take it? A car or a CD is not the issue. It is the act, and the deed done in the heart that is the issue.

3. That's fine if your pastor wants to have people copy it for free. I like Rick Warren's idea. Give it all sermons away for free. Give all ideas away for free. All of it comes from God, so who is anyone to put a price on it, aside from the raw goods expenses, and paying a tithe to the ministry.

Brent,

In statement #1 I feel you are right no sin is worse than any other in God's Eyes. In statement #2 I feel there is a gray area in this because what about the missionaries that are throughout the world that routinely break the laws of the countries they are in to get the Gospel out. Even in the Bible after Jesus was Crucified some of the disciples were wanted men, but was that wrong in God's Eyes?

[Michael]

I think Crossways touched on a central issue here that hasn't even been stated outright yet:

I will never understand why Christians feel SO entitled to things. Just because you want something.....even REALLY want something, it doesn't mean you are going to get or even should get it. Even if that something is a good wholesome thing like a Petra Video, or cd.

...

Are you willing to tarnish your witness over a cd?

I think an important issue here is that it is NOT critical for ANYONE'S Christian walk to have ANY Petra CD at all. The apostle Paul did not have Petra. For that matter, what about Moses and David? I realize that is ridiculous, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is just as possible to live a life that is pleasing before God having never heard Petra at all, as it is when you have the priviledge of listening to Petra. The thing that it is critically important to have is the Word of God Itself. If you do not have access to the Bible, it is important that you use any means you can to get a copy of the Word. But there is no Petra CD that is essential to leading a Godly life.

So, the question is: knowing that you are on at best VERY shaky legal ground by copying a Petra CD, is it worth sinning by stealing to obtain it? If you are using it for a witness, is your witness for Christ so weak that it requires you to steal in order to share Jesus with someone? (The Word says that people will believe because of preaching, not music.) And... if you already own a Petra CD, wouldn't it be just as easy to share that copy of the CD with someone by giving or lending it, rather than to sin against God by stealing?

(Yes, it is stealing. It is breaking man's laws, and as long as man's laws are not counter to God's Word, breaking them is sinning because the Word says God puts our leaders in power.)

[brent]

Brent,

In statement #1 I feel you are right no sin is worse than any other in God's Eyes. In statement #2 I feel there is a gray area in this because what about the missionaries that are throughout the world that routinely break the laws of the countries they are in to get the Gospel out. Even in the Bible after Jesus was Crucified some of the disciples were wanted men, but was that wrong in God's Eyes?

Simply...

Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law. GODS law. GODS law says "Thou shalt not steal." Jesus then said, above all other things, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Then he gave the last instructions, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel...." These come straight from God.

Ok, now the law of the land is different than God's laws. The law may not take into consideration God, Jesus Christ, etc. So be it. Jesus said that the fruit of the Spirit has no law against it, because it is a result of the heart. There are more ways to preach, like living it out, to get the job done.

We know that there are martres right up to the end of the age. They have special rewards in Heaven. Why, for breaking the laws of man? No, for obeying the command of the Lord.

So, you cannot associate bootlegging, which is both a sin against God and the law of the land, and spreading the gospel, because both come from God, one as a law, one as a command. they are not juxtaposed.

[greenchili]

OK so is someone saying it is perfectly ok to go to the Steve Taylor fansite and pick up some of his music. Simply because "Steve T" said it was OK? Well what about the involved parties and the money due to them?

Well that certainly brings up alot of interesting questions.

For example.. If for some strange reason

A local radio station plays an entire Petra album. The listener records the radio station and burn it to a CD. Is that legal? Is it legal to then copy that CD and give it to a friend?

Same thing for internet radio. If an internet radio station plays an entire album. The listener records the songs, burns em to a CD. Is that legal? Is it legal to then copy that CD and give it to a friend?

Extending this to bootlegs (which I'm not exactly sure how the LAW applies in this case). But assuming it is legal.

Someone records a live concert (whether by video or audio), and NO indication was given by the artist that recording was NOT allowed. Is said person allowed to keep that recording, as well as make copies available to a friend?

[greenchili]

Simply...

Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law. GODS law. GODS law says "Thou shalt not steal." Jesus then said, above all other things, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Then he gave the last instructions, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel...." These come straight from God.

Ok, now the law of the land is different than God's laws. The law may not take into consideration God, Jesus Christ, etc. So be it. Jesus said that the fruit of the Spirit has no law against it, because it is a result of the heart. There are more ways to preach, like living it out, to get the job done.

We know that there are martres right up to the end of the age. They have special rewards in Heaven. Why, for breaking the laws of man? No, for obeying the command of the Lord.

So, you cannot associate bootlegging, which is both a sin against God and the law of the land, and spreading the gospel, because both come from God, one as a law, one as a command. they are not juxtaposed.

It's great that people hear the gospel. But how is it ok to steal for that to happen? It's isn't Jesus Christ broke no laws, neither should we. You can't make a solid case for bootlegged CDs = saved souls. I don't think God honors any sin, no matter how trivial to US, under the guise of ministry. Maybe I should buy a hooker when I am in Nashville so that I could witness to her during the act.

Maybe I should buy a hooker when I am in Nashville so that I could witness to her during the act.

Juxtaposed indeed...

I must be missing something. Is breaking the law sin or not? And in which cases? WHO decides it? Everybody has their own interpretation of the bible, so WHO is right? Are there any exceptions? If the bible specifically does not cover an issue, are we then adding to it?

[brent]

Again, the argument for CD Bootlegging being right because missionaries preach the gospel is absurd. It is simple. You can't take two countries with different laws and two different activities and compare them, saying it is right to steal music in this country, it is ok to spread the gospel in another, or vice versa. It's not apples to apples.

Obey God in the matters of God. Obey the law of the land as he commanded, in the matters of the land. There is precident for God's laws and his commands taking priority over that of tha land, when they go against the will of God. In the US and Mexico, the law of God, and the law of tha land are exactly the same in the matter of theft. Both say don't do it. Since both God and man agree it is wrong, then stop it. don't continue to rationalize it. You are sinning. Sin isolates you from God. Isolation from God is not worth you getting your jollies on Christian music. It is counterproductive.