Is Louie restrained?

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zak89
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by zak89 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:12 pm

Actually, Louie's playing is featured on only a handful of Petra albums - AFAIK all of the JDB & Elefante produced albums used samples rather than "live" drums, occasionally with Louie doing some fills and/or overdubs. Wake Up Call is one album that Louie played through - that's the only one I'm clear on.

<EDIT>Hah - Cat beat me to it.</EDIT>
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by zak89 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:14 pm

I think Louie may have played on Revival - although that album was so soaked with effects I don't know if the "realness" would have cut through the mix.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by curt » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:19 pm

He was only off of one studio album and one live album. I don't know how that brings us to just a few opportunites to talk about him.
Louie didn't play on all the records when he was a member of the band. There has been some writings on this subject on the zone. You can find some info here: http://thepetrazone.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55672

I still find it very hard to understand how someone can be a member of the band for years and yet not be allowed to play on the records. If he wasn't good enogh for the records, how could he be good enough for the tours? If he was good enough for the tours, how come he wasn't good enough for the records?

It's interesting that he will be playing on the Classic Petra record. I heard the samples today. I think it sounds good. And it's got a legitimacy that Petra hasn't had for a very, very, very long time in my oppinion. Interesting.

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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:24 pm

That is the practice with a lot of bands in the music industry. One thing that bugs me about Southern Gospel is that Quartets can call their producer, book the studio all from the road and when they get back from the tour all the music is produced and they just go in and record the vocals according to the charts. No room to put your own personal touch on something unless you're the Gaither Vocal Band. But if you're not the Gaither Vocal Band, here's a selling point, we can make you sound like them.

I agree with you, that if someone is going to be in the band (and they are good enough) then put them on the album. If they are not good enough to represent you in the studio, why do they represent you on the road too???
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by St_Augustines_Pears » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:51 am

From what I remember reading at time of the album's release , Louie really played on REVIVAL.

I'm hoping he played on GOD FIXATION. I think that album has a really great drum sound...that's another reason it's my favorite Petra album.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by rexreed » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 am

I totally understand why a person can be good enough for the road but not good enough for a recording. A lot of guitar players are really lousy but that doesn't stop the band from being successful, same fot the drums. That happens all the time. My only gripe is that the drums, whoever plays them, on the new album sound kind of plain.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by Boray » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:54 am

rexreed wrote:My only gripe is that the drums, whoever plays them, on the new album sound kind of plain.
I agree.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by separateunion » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:31 am

Boray wrote:
rexreed wrote:My only gripe is that the drums, whoever plays them, on the new album sound kind of plain.
I agree.
Seconded.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by BTRPETRAGeorge » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:31 am

I also agree, when I first heard it I thought exactly the same thing the drumming for some of the samples sounds ordinary, but I also think that Mark's bass sound should have been turned up just a little more so the music sounds a little bit deeper. But it certainly is an improvement to the original, especially the added drum section to More Power To Ya!!!
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by brent » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:46 am

I don't buy less is more. I say play like it is your last. This is how I do produce: Make each part memorable.

As Louie has matured he has changed styles. He is more into adding some alt to the groove, rather than doing fills. This was frustrating to me, because when I recorded him, I wanted "animal" Louie. I had to pretty much tell him what I wanted for him to give it to me. Remember, JDB could not get Louie to play what he wanted him to play either. If you listen to these preview tracks, you are getting pretty much what he likes to play.

I would prefer these tunes to be more aggressive myself, but that is obviously not where they are. Remember these guys are in their mid 60s. I hope to be alive and kickin, rockin at 60. MPT them. It is what it is and it sounds great.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:42 am

I don't buy less is more. I say play like it is your last. This is how I do produce: Make each part memorable.
I don't always like the "Less is More" thing either. However main stream Radio in the last 20 years has been about that and I'm guessing this is how Louie has reset himself to think over the years. Get it done and don't leave room for error.
Remember these guys are in their mid 60s.
I don't think being in their 50's or 60's has anything to do with it. Buddy Rich (the World fastest drummer, and the King of drummers) was four months short of turning 70 when he died from a brain tumor. He was still playing like he did when he was in his 20's and 30's, and Jazz at that level is very active for the Drummer. Buddy lived a very hard life and even took a plane to England to play 3 weeks after his open Heart Surgery.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by jmslick » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:00 am

CatNamedManny wrote: [Louie] arrived after Never Say Die and performed on MPTY, but Jonathan David Brown basically kicked him off NOTW and BTS because he thought they didn't work well together basically.
I'm reviving another ancient post to clarify the primary reason that Louie did not record on all the early 80's albums.

WHAT'S IN YOUR POCKET?
As producer, JDB was entrusted with having a lot of input on the sound and feel. He was hired, not teach us how to be studio pro's, but to bring out the best of the songs. He was accustomed to recording with Edwards, who probably had substantially more recording studio experience than any of us. JDB required a drummer who could reliably lay it down "in the pocket" with authority and keep it moving without getting in the way. In short: he needed an experienced studio drummer.

None of us were studio-pro level musicians. Yeah, we were all pretty good, but we all did lots of things over again. We "punched in" a lot of fixes. I hear a punch on the simple little synth solo in Not Of This World and I still don't like that we punched it. Actually, JDB could have punched it better, but I should have instead played it correctly, once, all the simple way through.

In those days, we were all pretty green musicians, and especially green in the studio, which is a lot different realm from live, where you have fans, lights, excitement, adrenaline, and play with more vigor and inspiration.

MICKY MOUSE Versus MAGILLA GORILLA
In Louie's defense, he was more of an in-your-face gorilla drummer when playing live, than he was in the dry, controlled, air-conditioned, uninspiring studio environment. In fact, we were all better live.

I thought Louie played just fine on MPTY, but one track which we all could have rhythmically improved was "All Over Me". It tends to languish and plod along, but that was not all Louie's fault. It's in part due to the lack of subdividing the beat: don't just hammer away in straight 8th's, but use more 16th's on the hat and push the choruses a bit. It would also have helped if the guitar had done something more rhythmically interesting than playing "goose eggs" (long chords), and it would also have moved along better with more push from the electric piano. I always cringe when I hear this languid section: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZsgm9DIW6Y&t=2m43s.

In defense of All Over Me, maybe sometime I'll write about what the pianist for the Count Basie Band said about the track. :mrgreen:

THE PURDIE SHUFFLE
Even the venerated Steely Dan realized that they were outclassed by studio pro's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ldtieSEyQM

WHEN IN DOUBT, LAY OUT
After Petra, I bummed around Trashville doing freelance recording for five years. I never became a first-call "A-team" player, but I learned a lot and developed a modicum of pro-level studio skill.

In mid 2000's I started playing as keyboard sub with a local club band, whose leader owns a studio and records bands every day. On the first night I subbed with them, I asked the leader, "How am I doing? Playing too much? Too little? Too loud?" His reply: "You're doing fine. I can tell you've done a lot of studio work." That was one of the nicest unsolicited compliments I've ever heard about my mediocre playing. Another thing I learned from him was: "When in doubt, lay out".

The point is: studio playing requires an approach and confidence different from live playing, and most young musicians- as were were in the early 80's- are not musically mature enough to do it as well as they will with later years of experience.
Last edited by jmslick on Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by fcollazo » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:28 am

Pretty interesting John. More on the Count Basie story please. Also, have you listened to any other of the Petra albums produced after your departure, and what would your assessment be of the evolution of the sound of the band and their musicianship?? Thanks!
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by brent » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:56 pm

fcollazo wrote:Have you guys noted how little tom fills Louie is doing. It almost sounds like he east asked just to keep the back beat steady and stay put
I shouldn't have replied, and did so without reading John's post. I can speak from my experience with Louie.

Louie has never been an overly tom-happy player. This is a mind set. You have to remember, when Louie was learning to play, the days of tom happy drumming were coming to an end. I think the reason why the old Petra material stands up the way it does now, is because it is straight ahead, simple playing on Louie's part.

If you look at the top hits, and break them down, you will see/hear aside from Rush and a couple of others, the best hits have very simple, in the pocket drums. Take AC/DC, Foreigner, Boston, Heart, Pink Floyd, Def Leppard, etc. Louie is old school. He believes in letting the song do it's thing and the drums should support the song.

When he tracked drums for me, he was very much into poppy stuff. He loves Jeff Poraro (Toto). He likes playing syncopated stuff. I tried to get him to play a bigger DW kit, with bigger toms and a couple of floor toms. I needed big, thunder, rock drums. He insisted on a small kit with three smaller toms, and he didn't go wild on them. I had him record some loops at various bpms, and told him to go Muppet Show Animal. I got great grooves out of him, but nothing crazy. The only time I got fills was when I played his patterns through his phones and asked him to do fills for those.

Louie does what he wants. Nobody is going to tell Louie what to do, unless they want to hear about it. This is one reason JDB liked working with other drummers in the old days.

I think the reason he didn't play aggressively on the CP tour was because he was playing to tracks, and there is no deviating, unless you want to get lost. I think the other part of it is age. Playing drums is hard on the body, especially when you are in your 60s.
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Re: Is Louie restrained?

Post by jmslick » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:58 pm

brent wrote:
fcollazo wrote:Have you guys noted how little tom fills Louie is doing. It almost sounds like he east asked just to keep the back beat steady and stay put

I think the reason he didn't play aggressively on the CP tour was because he was playing to tracks...
I read a Youtube post somewhere, that someone suggested they were lip syncing... maybe at the CP show at Trinity in Hendersonville. I watched some of the video and didn't think so.

Never occurred to me that they'd devolve to using tracks live. What do you suppose was on the tracks... just click and vocals?
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