May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogant?

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May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogant?

Post by Leandro Seeger » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:42 am

I am Brazilian and I don't had a good feeling to hear the new Jonh Solo.

It sounded to me something like "The White Man's Burden", something like the Monroe Doctrine for other countries, but now, to "around the world", something patriotic to the extreme. Against "terrorism", something politically alienated.
Ok we know, the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, Human Rights, UN, Evangelism Neo-Pentecostalist, all had a beginnig. A mold gospel to the world from the 80s.

Ok but even then, I did not hear that well.

Post your views about it.

Let's start by "Cultural Difference". What I don't know if it's associated to Christianity very well since it should not exist by a "country representative". The historical error was from the Romans

Freedom does not resemble a justification of acculturation; cultural domination imposed for other people by a National Historic Constitution ("American").

Every body knows it's a mistake. Furthermore in 2012.

Is It the world we want? Politically Alienated?
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by p-freak » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:07 am

I can imagine your feelings and I partly agree with you, but I wouldn't say it's as bad a the "White Man's Burden".

Before all you Americans start beating up Leandro (and me), we're not dissing John, we're not dissing the US, we're just looking at this from a completely different point of view which is just as Christian/Biblical, as valid and as carefully formulated as yours.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by Preacherman777 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:52 am

I think that what people need to understand about this song is that it's written to fellow Americans encouraging the kind of American patriotism that was grounded in faith. I'm sure it was never intended to be an insult to anyone in any other country and I think that many who insist on looking at it as though it were are really just being way too sensitive and probably looking for a reason to be offended. This is part of who John is and as Christians we ought to love and accept him in that. It's not as though being an American and having pride in the fact that America was meant to be a country founded on Judeo/Christian principles and traditions, yet accepting of all belief systems in some kind of sin. America is in the middle of an identity crisis right now because there are now so many who wish to leave behind the values and principles that made us great. We are rapidly getting away from the foundations of faith that made this country something worth protecting and something worth being proud of. The idea of being free to worship any way you wanted or even not to worship was a very unique idea in the world when this country was founded, as were the many freedoms and rights that were then recognized as being God given and not government given. In some ways those ideas are still unique. We were a country that embraced religion without creating any kind of state religion that people had to belong to. We used to encourage religion as a good thing for society and even necessary for the American experiment to actually work the way it was suppose to. But now we are doing everything we can to kick God out of our country and to oppress those who still want him here. I think if you were from America and you could see what's happened here and how much we have lost, you would understand why such songs are written.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by executioner » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:37 am

Preacherman777 wrote:I think that what people need to understand about this song is that it's written to fellow Americans encouraging the kind of American patriotism that was grounded in faith. I'm sure it was never intended to be an insult to anyone in any other country and I think that many who insist on looking at it as though it were are really just being way too sensitive and probably looking for a reason to be offended. This is part of who John is and as Christians we ought to love and accept him in that. It's not as though being an American and having pride in the fact that America was meant to be a country founded on Judeo/Christian principles and traditions, yet accepting of all belief systems in some kind of sin. America is in the middle of an identity crisis right now because there are now so many who wish to leave behind the values and principles that made us great. We are rapidly getting away from the foundations of faith that made this country something worth protecting and something worth being proud of. The idea of being free to worship any way you wanted or even not to worship was a very unique idea in the world when this country was founded, as were the many freedoms and rights that were then recognized as being God given and not government given. In some ways those ideas are still unique. We were a country that embraced religion without creating any kind of state religion that people had to belong to. We used to encourage religion as a good thing for society and even necessary for the American experiment to actually work the way it was suppose to. But now we are doing everything we can to kick God out of our country and to oppress those who still want him here. I think if you were from America and you could see what's happened here and how much we have lost, you would understand why such songs are written.

Nicely said!! I think the comments from the other 2 posters are naive in their views and thinking on the U.S.A. and to be frank the idea and full meaning of the song Faith & Freedom will never be understood by someone that is not a citizen of the United States; I believe that unless your an American you can never fully understand what the Foundation our Forefathers envision and set up for the United States. If anyone is offended by the song they just don't fully realize the meaning of the song which is no fault on your part because I feel only an American can fully realize it.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by rexreed » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:57 am

Thanks for posting Leandro. This same topic has been posted about the same song. Some folks really like the song and others, well not so much. I do not believe you have to be "American" to understand the song at all. The lyrics are very basic and not hard to understand.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by Leandro Seeger » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:13 pm

Ok, is real the meaning of the song is clear, to blow up the faith, to rejoicing,...ok.
But really I don't think so that the only North American or better, Stateunited people may understand the message sond.

What I'm talking about is what the real meaning through things, things that in time had a good idea, is worth to be care and is needed urgently that ideas may have a thinking more.Some things seem beautifully, but in clear thinking it's show from your occurrence with politicians that in time are no so carefull men.

I still hold the point that Jonh don't need do things like it to preach the gospel. I apreciate his work, his musically make my mind, yet

Ok, but in other hand we know the melancolic tematics, as alike 80's, it's finished. Ok, So there more inteligents things to do today.

By the way, it permited me to say we can think yet. May the lyrics song be to just, and exactly as a product to the consumer shelf, destined the median people "all the citizens". May be.

Sorry It's not a offence is just a point of view by the art, work, ministery, talent cheer and joy performed by the Great Jonh.
But may polliticaly he have a Greater Cause more Big in this time.
It is just my point, but as a American man, Latino I still thinki, (don't wanting to believe) in cultural domination...importad models...All things that the History show us.

Thanks And Cheer
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by brent » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:11 pm

With all due respect, the people that buy John's CDs don't need to hear the Gospel. They already know John, know his story, and know Jesus Christ.

Regarding the political thing...All John is doing is trying to wake up Christians who say they believe what Jesus said, but don't live it out in their civic lives. The USA was founded on Godly principles. Most other countries were not. I would say that if people are offended by that, they should maybe think about how they can fix their country so that it IS living by Godly principles. That's what John is doing.

John is not elevating the USA, or wrapping the American flag around Jesus Christ and the cross. He is speaking to the Christians in the USA, calling them to task. We have a saying in the USA, put your money where your mouth is. We have another saying, put up or shut up. It is time for Christians to do something about this mess. If people don't like that, then people do not like the Bible, because it is a biblical message. We will one day be judged by our actions and our stewardship of what has been given to us.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by sue d. » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:43 pm

Well said, Brent.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by andreasbjerre » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:29 am

brent wrote:With all due respect, the people that buy John's CDs don't need to hear the Gospel. They already know John, know his story, and know Jesus Christ.

Regarding the political thing...All John is doing is trying to wake up Christians who say they believe what Jesus said, but don't live it out in their civic lives. The USA was founded on Godly principles. Most other countries were not. I would say that if people are offended by that, they should maybe think about how they can fix their country so that it IS living by Godly principles. That's what John is doing.

John is not elevating the USA, or wrapping the American flag around Jesus Christ and the cross. He is speaking to the Christians in the USA, calling them to task. We have a saying in the USA, put your money where your mouth is. We have another saying, put up or shut up. It is time for Christians to do something about this mess. If people don't like that, then people do not like the Bible, because it is a biblical message. We will one day be judged by our actions and our stewardship of what has been given to us.
Not true Brent, the people who buy Johns CD need to hear the gospel! All christians need to hear the gospel again and again, all christians need to repend from their sins and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation every single day. And especially in these liberal thelogy times we need to hear this! This is the christian life we are called to! To think that once you heard the gospel and "accepted Jesus to come into your heart", you are saved....is not a biblical fact! Why are christian principles and values tragically fading out more in the US and all over the western world? First and foremost because the christians are sleeping, when it comes to proclaiming the real gospel for people. Look at the CCM scene, its about fashion and popularity on mainstream radio, more than Jesus. Now you have a great so-called christian culture in the US and other places, that is so lukewarm, that God must be weeping, with false teachers like Rick Warren and Joel Esteen seducing people.

I believe John heart is at the right place, and I think its great that he fights for the christian values. I understand this much more now, than a year or two ago. But I still think the line "Somethings were meant to be together" is misplaces in the song "Faith and freedom". Jesus said : "My kingdom is not of this world". No kingdom or country will ever be truly christian, and actually Jesus never told people to "go into all the world and build up christian states". No he said "go into all the world and make my disciples". Off course we shall fight for christian values in society, fight for freedom, justice, charity and so on. Totally!
BUT if the main population is not christian (as it isn't in the US) then I have understanding that christian values are not what the population wants to build their country upon. How do we change this? How do we make people in the US, wants to have more christian values in the country again? I think that proclaiming the gospel pure is what needs to be done, that is the only thing that can change peoples heart. No political discussions or songs that hints, the country of the US is not an institution of this world, but of God will ever change the hearts of unbelievers to fight for christian values. But to admit your sin, and see what christ has done for you will change everything, and change which values you will choose to fight for. The US is and has always been an institution of this world,was build on christian values yes,but still an earthly institution. To influence it in a godly way is another thing, and a right thing to do!
I think that probably one of the biggest tragedys in the modern church is, that people has began to think more of earthly things, than of the things to come. This is in no way comin from Jesus or the apostles. The biggest transgression from the true christians always comes when the church is thinking more about earthly things than about saving souls. The biggest awakenings and revivals of the christian churches, has always been when the church followed the commands of Jesus to proclaim the godpel for all people. Its not that you shouldn't care for this world, but this is something I really believe christians in the post-modern world of 2012 needs to think about. These are times of backsliding, lets change that by focusing on the most important issues!
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by brent » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:16 am

My point is, Johns fans are generally Christian, religious, or they think they are. Generally speaking, the masses do not buy Christian music for the heck of it, just to listen to the music. The masses do not unknowingly spend money on CDs. They generally have a good idea of what they are buying before hand. I am sure there are a few exceptions.

My point is not that John needs to stop sharing his gospel and his story. But for fan retention sake, there needs to be meat. Paul himself stated that people need to move on from hearing the milky things. Christians do not need to hear and commit all over again all of the time. The bible is clear. We are not to crucify repeatedly. He died once and for all. Accept it once and for all.

As for Joel, his name is Osteen. What he says is true, but not true enough for some. He does not go far enough. What you do not know is that his church does get the whole Gospel, you just don't see that on TV. I have seen it myself. His brother, the doctor, preaches the mid-week services and he does lay it out like his daddy use to. His dad was an SBC pastor first. That part of the fire and brimstone delivery never changed.

Rick Warren is not a false teacher. I know that is popular to say. My dad, also a former minister, goes to Rick's church. I have been there and have heard the Gospel LAID OUT clear and plain for people to grasp it. They had three of the best speakers I have heard come out and give different angles. It wass awesome. Something for everyone. Saddle Back Church had so many conversions and baptisms on Easter that Rick and other pastors spend hours in the tank. Until your church and your minister comes up with a way to make something so simple that any grade schooler can grasp it, and thousands of people come to your church, accept Christ and get baptized in ONE DAY, then I would say...you have no idea what you are talking about.

Rick is one of the most mis-quoted pastors. If you don't trust the press for your political news, I would REALLY not trust them with the religious news. For example, this whole Muslim thing. My dad sent me the email that Rick sent out before the article in the Orange County paper, featuring Rick meeting with Muslims. He documented what was said to the reporter contrasted with what came from the reporter. It was drastically different. Rick is not selling some hybrid gospel. Rick is not selling some gay friendly gospel. When you get down to it, since we are all sinners, the gospel was friendly to us. It did not agree with us. But, it was friendly and loving towards us. We can't pick and choose who it should be friendly and loving too. When we do, we are putting ourselves above God.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by andreasbjerre » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:01 am

Well I disagree very much with you. What is for example written in "the purpurse driven life", is in my oppinion false teachings. But this is a long discussion that is not to be taken up here.

I just hope people will begin searching for the real answers in the bible, and not from people who claim to have a biblical message. And I dont get excited about how many converts many big tv preachers can "make". Off course if you tell a message that leaves out sin and judgment, its easier to make people "accept Jesus christ into their lives". Then it's just not the Jesus of the bible, who came to save from sin and from the wrath of God!
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by brent » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:04 am

You don't believe that God has a purpose for your life? You don't believe that Jesus died for you? You don't believe that if you accept Jesus Christ your life will have new meaning, new focus and that you should replicate yourself in the world? If not, it is you with the false teaching issue, not Rick.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by brent » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:11 am

andreasbjerre wrote:Well I disagree very much with you. What is for example written in "the purpurse driven life", is in my oppinion false teachings. But this is a long discussion that is not to be taken up here.

I just hope people will begin searching for the real answers in the bible, and not from people who claim to have a biblical message. And I dont get excited about how many converts many big tv preachers can "make". Off course if you tell a message that leaves out sin and judgment, its easier to make people "accept Jesus christ into their lives". Then it's just not the Jesus of the bible, who came to save from sin and from the wrath of God!
Rick neither leaves out judgement or sin. You are missing what his approach is. It is not the purpose of men to go around condemning and judging people. The Holy Spirit convicts and restores BEFORE man has a word in. Rick understands how humans work, what the Holy Spirit does. It is easier to get someone to listen to you when you are offering help and a cure for their illness. They don't need a speech that makes them feel bad for having it. Your doctor doesn't do that to you when you are sick. "Stupid! Why did you get sick? You knew better." The majority of the people not jiving with Rick's approach, which is on the concern, caring, doing something about it, putting his money where his mouth is (literally). They want to gripe about what rick says and how he says it. They cannot dispute his fruit, his work and the results. When it comes down to it, people are jealous because Rick's God doesn't fit into their box. To quote John, God is TOO BIG.
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by andreasbjerre » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:15 am

Try to read his book. Its message is making a description how to get your hearts changed, so you can love God more, and follow his ways more, be more sanctified etc. No description can change anyones hearts. Only by Gods grace, by his changes in your hearts, which comes from hearing a clear message that condems you with the law and sets you free with the gospel, only in this way can hearts be changed by the holy spirit. Not by your own aspires.

The book is talking so much about what we shall be as christians, but barely mentions that through christ, we are allready what we needs to be. Off course we need sanctification, but Rick Warren way of thinking is not the biblical way. Salvation is by grace, but also sanctification is by grace!
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Re: May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogan

Post by brent » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:34 am

andreasbjerre wrote:Try to read his book. Its message is making a description how to get your hearts changed, so you can love God more, and follow his ways more, be more sanctified etc. No description can change anyones hearts. Only by Gods grace, by his changes in your hearts, which comes from hearing a clear message that condems you with the law and sets you free with the gospel, only in this way can hearts be changed by the holy spirit. Not by your own aspires.

The book is talking so much about what we shall be as christians, but barely mentions that through christ, we are allready what we needs to be. Off course we need sanctification, but Rick Warren way of thinking is not the biblical way. Salvation is by grace, but also sanctification is by grace!
Hello. The context of the book is GOD. The word Christian assumes Christ is involved. Sounds like you are being a little legalistic.
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