May be "05. Faith & Freedom" (Greater Cause), be arrogant?

[andreasbjerre]

But sanctification comes by grace, by hearing the gospel again and again. Yes we have work to do as christians, but it is the grace and mercy that helps us. It is by seeing your sin again and again, and seeing how big the salvation through Jesus is that your heart will change and deeds will come. Read Titus 2,11-13, those words are summing it up...the grace of God (which is the gospel) is the thing that sanctifies. Not our own works. And all in all I get the impression reading this book, that I have to try more be more etc. And the gospel is not explained ploperly, eventhough its through the gospel, you get the heart to live the christian life...

[brent]

But sanctification comes by grace, by hearing the gospel again and again.

Wrong.



justification: salvation from the penalty of sin in the past
sanctification: salvation from the power of sin in the present (possible by Christ’s ascension and present advocacy)
glorification: salvation from the presence of sin in the future (possible by Christ’s second coming and final judgments)

As mature believers, we do not NEED to hear the gospel of Christ over and over again to be sanctified. Again, that is milk. I don't need milk. I have confidence through the witness of the Holy Spirit, even when I do not feel like it, that I am/will be saved. I am too far down the road to think differently. God either meant His Word and His work through Jesus Christ or He didn't.

Sanctification did not come before I accepted Jesus Christ. It is where I am NOW, part of working out my salvation AFTER I first believed, before the Second Coming.

Pre salvation, I had to be in a place/time/state where I could "hear" the Gospel and own it. The Holy Spirit was already at work in my life. I had a part in the believing of it, with a gift of faith from God. God did not force the belief into my head. This is why He gave the whole story and descriptions of soil, knowing who to throw seed in front of and who not to waste it in front of. This is why the bible lines out the ministries and gifts, because they all relate to people differently. No two salvation conversion experiences are the same. No two walks are the same. So two people are the same. God relates specifically to everyone, Whosoever will.

Sanctification has to do with OUR obedience, separating ourselves from the world, setting ourselves apart to the work of "the called", ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, under testing, trials and such BY GOD. If you need a reminder all of the time, that Jesus saves, and that helps you stay apart from the world, fine. I don't get it, but fine. But the gospel is not integral to sanctification, according to he biblical definition of sanctification.

[executioner]

But sanctification comes by grace, by hearing the gospel again and again. Yes we have work to do as christians, but it is the grace and mercy that helps us. It is by seeing your sin again and again, and seeing how big the salvation through Jesus is that your heart will change and deeds will come. Read Titus 2,11-13, those words are summing it up...the grace of God (which is the gospel) is the thing that sanctifies. Not our own works. And all in all I get the impression reading this book, that I have to try more be more etc. And the gospel is not explained ploperly, eventhough its through the gospel, you get the heart to live the christian life...

So what your saying(from all of your posts on the subject) Is that as Christians its our place first to point out the sins of the lost to the lost and then by God's Grace they will turn from their sins towards God? I'm not making a statement I'm asking a question.

[andreasbjerre]

But sanctification comes by grace, by hearing the gospel again and again. Yes we have work to do as christians, but it is the grace and mercy that helps us. It is by seeing your sin again and again, and seeing how big the salvation through Jesus is that your heart will change and deeds will come. Read Titus 2,11-13, those words are summing it up...the grace of God (which is the gospel) is the thing that sanctifies. Not our own works. And all in all I get the impression reading this book, that I have to try more be more etc. And the gospel is not explained ploperly, eventhough its through the gospel, you get the heart to live the christian life...

So what your saying(from all of your posts on the subject) Is that as Christians its our place first to point out the sins of the lost to the lost and then by God's Grace they will turn from their sins towards God? I'm not making a statement I'm asking a question.

Not exactly. We are to point out the sin of the lost, and then show them the accomplished work for salvation by Jesus christ, so that they may believe and hold on to that, and be justified 100% by the work of Jesus. That is justification.

Now what my point is, is that when people are justified, there is something called sanctification, which means to live more and more according to Gods will. But even to be sanctified more and more needs Gods grace, and the godpel has a role in this. To hear the gospel repeated, is the power that, with help from the holy spirit, will sanctify people, and help them live the christian life. Look at Hebrews 12,1-2:

" Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

The power to lay aside the sin, happens when you look at the accomplished work of Jesus. See how the author of the Hebrews tells us to look at Jesus, while we are laying aside sin. Yes sometimes we have to move on from the milk, to understand more of who God is, but we are never to move away from the gospel, we need the milk again and again.

Titus 2,11-12: "For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;"

Again it is obvious that the sanctification (denying ungodliness and worldly lust) comes from the grace of God. And what is the grace of God? first and foremost that he send his son to take the punishment I deaserve.

2. Peter 1,3:" Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;"

The power of God and the knowledge of God is important when it comes to sanctification.

1. cor, 1,30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

To God belongs the glory, even for sanctification.

1. cor. 6,19-20: "Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

Paul refers to the price that Jesus paid, when talking about the body as a temple. We shall live in a holy way, and not sin with our bodies. Why shall we serve God? He loves us, and offered his son for us. Paul reminds the corinthians of the price he paid, because this reminder will help the corinthians to live holy.

When reading "The purposedriven life" I dont see this very much. All in all it seems that Rick warren thinks he can instruct people to be sanctified, and he doesn't use the gospel as the power of sanctification as the bible does. To quote Rick warren: "Spiritual growth is not automatic. It takes an intentional commitment. You must WANT to grow, DECIDE to grow, MAKE AN EFFORT to grow and PERSIST in growing. Discipleship - the process of becoming like christ -always begins with a decision."
I know this is taken out of context, but I think it sums up the way Warren writes. Its legalistic, its all about what I have to do to become more like Christ. We need Gods grace in this proces, we need to see ourselves as sinners again and again, and hear what Jesus has done to save us from this...this is important for sanctification as well, to get the power as the verses above tells.

1. John 1,9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

We must never in our pride move on from "confessing our sins, and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation". The gospel is the bread that we shall live by day to day!

[Preacherman777]

There is no point either before during or after salvation that God forces us to respond to his grace. We are helped by his Holy Spirit or we could not respond and the actual saving work is all of God, but yes, we must be willing to go along with the process and yes, this is true even after justification and on into sanctification. It's also true that we can not be saved nor can we grow without God's grace helping us along. Now, I actually agree with you that it's good for us to continually preach the gospel to ourselves, that we do not lose sight of how great a sinners we are and how big a savior he is and it is the blood of Christ and the gospel that both saves us and helps us to overcome the old way of life in the process of sanctification. The closer we grow to God, the more aware we should become of just how unworthy we are and just how massive is his grace towards us. People do need to hear the law when the gospel is preached or else they will not know the real reason they need Jesus, but it is not for us to condemn sinners, the Holy Spirit and the law serve that role. Rather, it is for us to make them aware of the law that they may know how they have offended God and then to tell them how they can be saved.

I should also say, however, that preaching the gospel to ourselves is for our own spiritual good in sanctification and not because we continually need to be saved. Salvation is one time deal and once we are in genuine faith, we stand justified so long as we remain in the faith.

[andreasbjerre]

There is no point either before during or after salvation that God forces us to respond to his grace. We are helped by his Holy Spirit or we could not respond and the actual saving work is all of God, but yes, we must be willing to go along with the process and yes, this is true even after justification and on into sanctification. It's also true that we can not be saved nor can we grow without God's grace helping us along. Now, I actually agree with you that it's good for us to continually preach the gospel to ourselves, that we do not lose sight of how great a sinners we are and how big a savior he is and it is the blood of Christ and the gospel that both saves us and helps us to overcome the old way of life in the process of sanctification. The closer we grow to God, the more aware we should become of just how unworthy we are and just how massive is his grace towards us. People do need to hear the law when the gospel is preached or else they will not know the real reason they need Jesus, but it is not for us to condemn sinners, the Holy Spirit and the law serve that role. Rather, it is for us to make them aware of the law that they may know how they have offended God and then to tell them how they can be saved.

I should also say, however, that preaching the gospel to ourselves is for our own spiritual good in sanctification and not because we continually need to be saved. Salvation is one time deal and once we are in genuine faith, we stand justified so long as we remain in the faith.

Well I do agree with you on that. I didn't mean we shall go around condemning all the people around us that are not christians, perhaps it sounded a little like that. But i do think that the biggest problem in many churches are, that the preachers don't use the law for its right purpose: To show people they are sinners who needs a saviour. If the law is never preached, people will not see why they actually need Jesus!


And yes I also believe we STAND in grace when we are saved. We dont move out and in of the grace every time we sin. But we need to see our sin again and again, because this makes us come to Jesus!

[brent]

There is no point either before during or after salvation that God forces us to respond to his grace. We are helped by his Holy Spirit or we could not respond and the actual saving work is all of God, but yes, we must be willing to go along with the process and yes, this is true even after justification and on into sanctification. It's also true that we can not be saved nor can we grow without God's grace helping us along. Now, I actually agree with you that it's good for us to continually preach the gospel to ourselves, that we do not lose sight of how great a sinners we are and how big a savior he is and it is the blood of Christ and the gospel that both saves us and helps us to overcome the old way of life in the process of sanctification. The closer we grow to God, the more aware we should become of just how unworthy we are and just how massive is his grace towards us. People do need to hear the law when the gospel is preached or else they will not know the real reason they need Jesus, but it is not for us to condemn sinners, the Holy Spirit and the law serve that role. Rather, it is for us to make them aware of the law that they may know how they have offended God and then to tell them how they can be saved.

I should also say, however, that preaching the gospel to ourselves is for our own spiritual good in sanctification and not because we continually need to be saved. Salvation is one time deal and once we are in genuine faith, we stand justified so long as we remain in the faith.

Well I do agree with you on that. I didn't mean we shall go around condemning all the people around us that are not christians, perhaps it sounded a little like that. But i do think that the biggest problem in many churches are, that the preachers don't use the law for its right purpose: To show people they are sinners who needs a saviour. If the law is never preached, people will not see why they actually need Jesus!


And yes I also believe we STAND in grace when we are saved. We dont move out and in of the grace every time we sin. But we need to see our sin again and again, because this makes us come to Jesus!

I see no reason to bring up the law of the Jews. It was not given to the Gentiles. That's Bible right there.

[andreasbjerre]

There is no point either before during or after salvation that God forces us to respond to his grace. We are helped by his Holy Spirit or we could not respond and the actual saving work is all of God, but yes, we must be willing to go along with the process and yes, this is true even after justification and on into sanctification. It's also true that we can not be saved nor can we grow without God's grace helping us along. Now, I actually agree with you that it's good for us to continually preach the gospel to ourselves, that we do not lose sight of how great a sinners we are and how big a savior he is and it is the blood of Christ and the gospel that both saves us and helps us to overcome the old way of life in the process of sanctification. The closer we grow to God, the more aware we should become of just how unworthy we are and just how massive is his grace towards us. People do need to hear the law when the gospel is preached or else they will not know the real reason they need Jesus, but it is not for us to condemn sinners, the Holy Spirit and the law serve that role. Rather, it is for us to make them aware of the law that they may know how they have offended God and then to tell them how they can be saved.

I should also say, however, that preaching the gospel to ourselves is for our own spiritual good in sanctification and not because we continually need to be saved. Salvation is one time deal and once we are in genuine faith, we stand justified so long as we remain in the faith.

Well I do agree with you on that. I didn't mean we shall go around condemning all the people around us that are not christians, perhaps it sounded a little like that. But i do think that the biggest problem in many churches are, that the preachers don't use the law for its right purpose: To show people they are sinners who needs a saviour. If the law is never preached, people will not see why they actually need Jesus!


And yes I also believe we STAND in grace when we are saved. We dont move out and in of the grace every time we sin. But we need to see our sin again and again, because this makes us come to Jesus!

I see no reason to bring up the law of the Jews. It was not given to the Gentiles. That's Bible right there.

Jesus in Matt. 5,17:"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Read Pauls epistle to the Romans. It shows that the law (the ten commandments, not all ritual laws) is still very important, when it comes to saving people, when it comes to the message given from the pulpit. The law shows people their sin, and shows people the need for a saviour. Chapter 3 and 7 are very clear on this

[Preacherman777]

Yeah, I gotta agree, your out in left field on this one, Brent. The Bible is very clear that the law serves a purpose and there is nothing that says that purpose is different for Gentiles. If it was, then there would be no way for Gentiles to sin and they would not need a savior. You might want to think that one through a little more carefully. I think you are confusing the Gentiles accountability to the food and ceremonial laws that were dealt with in Acts 15, but of course that was dealing with Gentiles who were already believers. Morality is morality and the whole world is accountable to the moral law, without question.

[brent]

Ah ha...suckas! I said the law of the Jews. There is a difference. READ what I said.

Galatians 5:14: "For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Ephesians 6:1-3 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 'Honor your father and mother'-- this is the first commandment with a promise: 'so that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.'"

I am not bound by the Jewish laws...the hundreds and hundreds that we don't even have in the bible. I live by what our high priest, Jesus Christ said. What he said is not always what we have in the old testament, or what Jewish tradition says.

[Preacherman777]

Brent, nobody is talking about traditions, but rather the moral law of God which is upheld in both the Old and New Testaments. If you look at the moral law, you will see that it is the same in both. It is by these things that all men are judged and found guilty of sin.

[Tiger71]

But sanctification comes by grace, by hearing the gospel again and again. Yes we have work to do as christians, but it is the grace and mercy that helps us. It is by seeing your sin again and again, and seeing how big the salvation through Jesus is that your heart will change and deeds will come. Read Titus 2,11-13, those words are summing it up...the grace of God (which is the gospel) is the thing that sanctifies. Not our own works. And all in all I get the impression reading this book, that I have to try more be more etc. And the gospel is not explained ploperly, eventhough its through the gospel, you get the heart to live the christian life...

So what your saying(from all of your posts on the subject) Is that as Christians its our place first to point out the sins of the lost to the lost and then by God's Grace they will turn from their sins towards God? I'm not making a statement I'm asking a question.

Not exactly. We are to point out the sin of the lost, and then show them the accomplished work for salvation by Jesus christ, so that they may believe and hold on to that, and be justified 100% by the work of Jesus. That is justification.

Now what my point is, is that when people are justified, there is something called sanctification, which means to live more and more according to Gods will. But even to be sanctified more and more needs Gods grace, and the godpel has a role in this. To hear the gospel repeated, is the power that, with help from the holy spirit, will sanctify people, and help them live the christian life. Look at Hebrews 12,1-2:

" Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

The power to lay aside the sin, happens when you look at the accomplished work of Jesus. See how the author of the Hebrews tells us to look at Jesus, while we are laying aside sin. Yes sometimes we have to move on from the milk, to understand more of who God is, but we are never to move away from the gospel, we need the milk again and again.

Titus 2,11-12: "For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;"

Again it is obvious that the sanctification (denying ungodliness and worldly lust) comes from the grace of God. And what is the grace of God? first and foremost that he send his son to take the punishment I deaserve.

2. Peter 1,3:" Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;"

The power of God and the knowledge of God is important when it comes to sanctification.

1. cor, 1,30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

To God belongs the glory, even for sanctification.

1. cor. 6,19-20: "Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

Paul refers to the price that Jesus paid, when talking about the body as a temple. We shall live in a holy way, and not sin with our bodies. Why shall we serve God? He loves us, and offered his son for us. Paul reminds the corinthians of the price he paid, because this reminder will help the corinthians to live holy.

When reading "The purposedriven life" I dont see this very much. All in all it seems that Rick warren thinks he can instruct people to be sanctified, and he doesn't use the gospel as the power of sanctification as the bible does. To quote Rick warren: "Spiritual growth is not automatic. It takes an intentional commitment. You must WANT to grow, DECIDE to grow, MAKE AN EFFORT to grow and PERSIST in growing. Discipleship - the process of becoming like christ -always begins with a decision."
I know this is taken out of context, but I think it sums up the way Warren writes. Its legalistic, its all about what I have to do to become more like Christ. We need Gods grace in this proces, we need to see ourselves as sinners again and again, and hear what Jesus has done to save us from this...this is important for sanctification as well, to get the power as the verses above tells.

1. John 1,9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

We must never in our pride move on from "confessing our sins, and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation". The gospel is the bread that we shall live by day to day!

A lot of this discussion seems to hinge on bad interpretations of what other people are saying.

Andreasbjerre you appear to be misunderstanding that what Rick says in his book (at least from the quote) are NOT requirements for salvation, he is NOT replacing the gospel message with something else. He is not telling you that you must do this in order to be saved or sanctified or justified or anything else. That is still the work of Jesus.

From your Quote:
When reading "The purposedriven life" I dont see this very much. All in all it seems that Rick warren thinks he can instruct people to be sanctified, and he doesn't use the gospel as the power of sanctification as the bible does. To quote Rick warren: "Spiritual growth is not automatic. It takes an intentional commitment. You must WANT to grow, DECIDE to grow, MAKE AN EFFORT to grow and PERSIST in growing. Discipleship - the process of becoming like christ -always begins with a decision."
I know this is taken out of context, but I think it sums up the way Warren writes. Its legalistic, its all about what I have to do to become more like Christ. We need Gods grace in this proces, we need to see ourselves as sinners again and again, and hear what Jesus has done to save us from this...this is important for sanctification as well, to get the power as the verses above tells.

Rick is NOT saying make a right decision so you that you will be saved, he is NOT saying “Live this way and you will earn your salvation.” He is saying now that you are saved, stop acting like an idiot and act like you are saved.

It is the same as in Romans when Paul was telling them – “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” …”Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” Paul is telling them how they should live their lives, actions require decisions to perform that action. BUT he did not say that your salvation would be earned by it.

Rick is talking about making right decisions NOT requirements for salvation. When you sin it is because you decided to do so, whether it was on purpose, or you did not give careful thought to whether or not you should do it. Jesus did a work in you through salvation, after you are saved you still have control of your actions, this implies that you can make decisions that determine your actions and consequences in this life (You reap what you sow), If you make the wrong decision (sin), you have an advocate with the father go to 1st John 1:9. Making the right decision is NOT to bring salvation, but deciding to live a Godly life so that we can be a better example, portray his heart to the world, not bring heartache and pain to ourselves and others, etc, etc,…

The same with John’s song, it is not saying that you must live like an American to be saved, or that the rest of the world must be like us. It is a song about not giving in to the belief that there is no place in American Politics for Christian beliefs and principles.

I know most of this may be because of language barriers, but you are reading way too much into this…

[andreasbjerre]

Andreasbjerre you appear to be misunderstanding that what Rick says in his book (at least from the quote) are NOT requirements for salvation, he is NOT replacing the gospel message with something else. He is not telling you that you must do this in order to be saved or sanctified or justified or anything else. That is still the work of Jesus.

You have to see the difference between salvation/justification on one side and sanctification on the other. Yes Rick is saying you must do this and that to be sanctified, but no he is not saying you must do it to be justified. But since sanctification IS to live holy, to avoid sin etc., sanctification is exactly what he is talking about.
I totally understand that the book "The purposedriven life" is mainly a book on sanctification and not on salvation/justification. If you look at that message I posted with all the bible verses, you will see in the beginning of the post, that the discussion is about sanctification, and that I do get this. But I think Rick Warren is talking sanctification in a legalistic way, forgetting where the power really comes from. And in the first place it seems, that he never really tells the gospel, which should be a fundamental element in a book that has the point to show you the purpose of your life. All the way through the book I also think he uses bible verses out of context to make it fit into his own points. I looked up lots of the verses he refers to, and I really think he is twisting some things. But thats a whole other discussion.

I never said anything like I think "Faith and freedom" is supposed to make christians live like an american. Read what I actually wrote. My point was, that the line "Somethings were meant to be together" is misplaced in my opinion, because no country will ever be truly christian. All governments are earthly institutions, and this line of the song seems to hint, that the US is not or was not this, but Gods institution on earth. That was my point, and thats why I dont like the message of the song, because i dont think its truly biblical to make so strong connections between the earthly institutions that countries are, and the kingdom of God, as this song seems to make.

[sue d.]

[executioner]

That pretty well sums it up, thanks Sue