The Petra Zone

rexreed wrote: did I miss a viewpoint?

***I think you got them...or at least the gist of all of them.

rexreed wrote:Has anyone had their mind changed yet? In the past some here have a real problem with music that is secular. I wonder if that is the real issue here?

***Really? Didn't both these guy used to sing secular music? I bet they do at home, too. Is it the public performances they don't like or just that secular music even exists?

executioner wrote:

Even a one time thing like these videos were could cause a Christian to stumble so how much more right can a "one time thing" over something that could continue be? I see there is no grey area here, but see so many are trying to justify the wrongs even though they most likely are a one time thing.

***Ex, I probably won't say much more on this subject, but this is a perfect example of someone needing to take a plank from his eye before he tries to pick the mote out of someone else's. You've made more excuses for John's questionable behavior than anyone has attempted to make for Greg. In fact, you can't even say both guys were in the wrong without going into a diatribe about how and why Greg's worse. It's kinda funny watching your verbal gymnastics, actually.

I dont get it, I really dont. Have we become so ecumenical and soft that we cant in the least bit show our discomfort over the fact that both John and Greg were in some videos that were shocking to one degree or another without being accused of being judgmental or harsh? I was disappointed about John's video but I was downright disgusted with Greg's but to Greg's credit I dont really think he wanted to be there doing that.

It really is not a matter of who's video was worse or who made the biggest mistake. They both made mistakes and as a fan I am shocked only because I know that they both are Godly men and that they have both blessed me through their singing and continue to be on a daily basis.

But some fans are acting like we have totally excommunicated them for some horrible sin. No one is judging them and no one is condemning them but we are scratching our heads and wondering what they were thinking.

Well I guess if you want to look at history, we could say that Greg is not a true "christian" since he did do that Aerosmith cover of Dream On. And let us not forget that as "christians" we shouldn't cuss, drink, smoke, get divorces, cheat on eachother, beat our kids, cut people off in traffic, etc... I would be willing to bet that some of you on here have done some of these things, so I guess that makes you not a "true christian" either.

I will say this, that because of this site, that is for "Petra fans", I have slowly but surely lost my love for the band. I thought for the longest time that I would DIE listening to Petra, but I have now moved on to other bands and don't really listen to Petra any more. I do like and listen to BTTR, LOVE the live version.
I did not support Johns 2 new albums, nor do I plan on ever buying them. If this "new Petra" comes out with a cd I most likely will not buy it. That is my 2 cents worth. I hope everyone has a great day and maybe we will all see eachother in heaven!!

Sorry for rambling

shawnpfan2010 wrote:Well I guess if you want to look at history, we could say that Greg is not a true "christian" since he did do that Aerosmith cover of Dream On. And let us not forget that as "christians" we shouldn't cuss, drink, smoke, get divorces, cheat on eachother, beat our kids, cut people off in traffic, etc... I would be willing to bet that some of you on here have done some of these things, so I guess that makes you not a "true christian" either.

I will say this, that because of this site, that is for "Petra fans", I have slowly but surely lost my love for the band. I thought for the longest time that I would DIE listening to Petra, but I have now moved on to other bands and don't really listen to Petra any more. I do like and listen to BTTR, LOVE the live version.
I did not support Johns 2 new albums, nor do I plan on ever buying them. If this "new Petra" comes out with a cd I most likely will not buy it. That is my 2 cents worth. I hope everyone has a great day and maybe we will all see eachother in heaven!!

Sorry for rambling

What....wait did someone say that John or Greg was not a true Christian?????

No I am just using that term because that is the feeling I get from reading other peoples posts. With all of the talk about him up on stage and singing a secular song with his daughters, I just got the feeling that some people were questioning his faith and values!!! The thing is we don't even know if his daughters are christians, we assume they are because of who their dad is, but nobody knows that but them and GOD.

My only issue here is with the hypocrisy of condemning Greg while making excuses for John. I don't condemn either of them. I know some people think the short skirts made the video Greg was in worse, but let's remember, they were not in a church and Rex made a very good point about the dresses being less revealing than a volleyball uniform. Maybe the guys here who are lusting after these girls need to be more concerned about their own thought life than they are with a girl wearing a mini-skirt, cuz guess what, if you're walking around in this country you're going to be exposed to short skirts and even more revealing things on a regular basis and so rather than being judge, jury and executioner over what is too short, maybe, just maybe, you need to think about your own responsibility to renew your mind. Modesty is a subjective issue. There is nothing in the Bible that tells how high or low a skirt should be and in fact the scriptures about modesty do not even actually address how much clothing a person is wearing, they deal more so with things like adorning yourself with jewelry. I get very tired of hearing men blaming women for their own inability to take their thoughts into captivity. If it were a church setting and these girls were up front leading worship like that, I'd feel differently, because yes, that could serve to distract their brothers from focusing on God, but that's not the case here.

Maybe someone should point out...This isn't about Greg or John and what they did anymore; it's become about people having to outdo each other and having to be right.

Preacherman777 wrote:I get very tired of hearing men blaming women for their own inability to take their thoughts into captivity.

I have disagreed with you about some things, but thank you very much for that; it is refreshing to know there are men who actually think men should be able to control themselves.

I get very tired of hearing men blaming women for their own inability to take their thoughts into captivity.

Offenses will come but woe to the offender

Ok. have to step in it.

Would jesus dance like those girls? Probably not.

Would Jesus hang with those people. Sure. Hanging and being a good influence to show them the light is much different than endorsing the actions of the world. Come on. Some of you guys are wresting scripture.

The Church is the family of God. Those who are practicing any sin, unrepentant, are NOT forgiven, are not saved and are not family of God. Can gays attend church? Sure. Are they members? No. Church members who fall back into their old lifestyle (and queerin' each other is not a Godly lifestyle...even the the homosexuals know it) are to be set apart from the church body. THAT IS BIBLICAL. That is discipline. The context of not throwing stones does not apply. Sure, we should not exclude people from the kingdom because God's will is that ALL should receive him. But, when it comes to fellowshipping with family, with God...people that throw their sin in God's face are not proper in attendance, acting like they are one with God and God is fine with what they are doing. Heck, I myself stay away when I know I am not what I should be. I am not going to play church. I am not going to act like I am OK when I am not. I do my personal damage control. John and Greg aren't gay, as far as I can tell. I don't see how singing a rock song equates to taking one in the behind. Come on you guys. Grow up.

There is nothing wrong with those guys singing the songs they sang. Holy cow. What is the big deal? Can they only sing Christian words? Just what ARE Christian words? Are Christian words only Christianese? Lord I hope not. Just maybe some of you can detail to me just what is acceptable to God? As far as I can tell, they did not do anything wrong.

[quote="brent"]Ok. have to step in it.

Would jesus dance like those girls? Probably not.

Would Jesus hang with those people. Sure. Hanging and being a good influence to show them the light is much different than endorsing the actions of the world. Come on. Some of you guys are wresting scripture.

The Church is the family of God. Those who are practicing any sin, unrepentant, are NOT forgiven, are not saved and are not family of God. Can gays attend church? Sure. Are they members? No. Church members who fall back into their old lifestyle (and queerin' each other is not a Godly lifestyle...even the the homosexuals know it) are to be set apart from the church body. THAT IS BIBLICAL. That is discipline. The context of not throwing stones does not apply. Sure, we should not exclude people from the kingdom because God's will is that ALL should receive him. But, when it comes to fellowshipping with family, with God...people that throw their sin in God's face are not proper in attendance, acting like they are one with God and God is fine with what they are doing. Heck, I myself stay away when I know I am not what I should be. I am not going to play church. I am not going to act like I am OK when I am not.
[quote]

***That's a novel approach--don't go to church is you're dealing with sin in your life. I thought we were supposed to go --sometimes even as a sacrifice--to worship God, to bring our offerings each week, to learn God's word and to be edified by the body.

Yep, the church is filled with sinners and the closer we get to God the more aware of that we should be. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners and that's a good attitude for us all to have. Doesn't mean we remain steadfast in willful and unrepentant sin, that would be a reason to be separated from the body, but it does mean that we need to remain aware of the fact we fall short everyday and we are never, ever, worthy of God's grace.

Dev wrote:

brent wrote:Ok. have to step in it.

Would jesus dance like those girls? Probably not.

Would Jesus hang with those people. Sure. Hanging and being a good influence to show them the light is much different than endorsing the actions of the world. Come on. Some of you guys are wresting scripture.

The Church is the family of God. Those who are practicing any sin, unrepentant, are NOT forgiven, are not saved and are not family of God. Can gays attend church? Sure. Are they members? No. Church members who fall back into their old lifestyle (and queerin' each other is not a Godly lifestyle...even the the homosexuals know it) are to be set apart from the church body. THAT IS BIBLICAL. That is discipline. The context of not throwing stones does not apply. Sure, we should not exclude people from the kingdom because God's will is that ALL should receive him. But, when it comes to fellowshipping with family, with God...people that throw their sin in God's face are not proper in attendance, acting like they are one with God and God is fine with what they are doing. Heck, I myself stay away when I know I am not what I should be. I am not going to play church. I am not going to act like I am OK when I am not.

***That's a novel approach--don't go to church is you're dealing with sin in your life. I thought we were supposed to go --sometimes even as a sacrifice--to worship God, to bring our offerings each week, to learn God's word and to be edified by the body.

What you don't know about me is that I am 46 years old. I was born going to church. My dad was a minister, youth director, deacon. Since 1988 I have been an audio/video/control service provider to churches. During my time doing PDC, we have interfaced with churches. I DO NOT want to be what I have experienced other people being. I do not want to play church. Church is a serious participatory gathering. It is not something you watch like entertainment. I have worked for most of the evangelists you have seen on TV, a few mega churches, large churches, and have been in and around the CCM industry. I have seen my share of phony people and they make me sick. Many people well respected are no more saved than my ironing board.

God does not do his work only at the family gathering in a "church building". God works us over while we set ourselves apart. Actually, Paul said that the devil works us over. I would rather be real, be set aside, rather than go live a lie and fake it. It's not a matter of committing sin and sitting home when I sin. If that were the case, I would never go. I do not want to contaminate the whole loaf when I am in a funk, or dealing with something. It doesn't happen often. My work keeps me a way enough.

Maybe some of you have had this happen. You deal with something and it seems like all of the programs on the radio are hitting on that issue. I have been scanning the radio and Chuck hits me between the eyes with something in the 10 seconds my tuner is parked on that station. God does his thing outside of the time WE have scheduled and WHERE we have chosen to meet. Then there is the bible itself.... My favorite is the personal interaction with people who REALLY know and SEE THROUGH me...you know, the "two or more". I can assure you that God works that way as well. He shows up.

Preacherman777 wrote:Yep, the church is filled with sinners and the closer we get to God the more aware of that we should be. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners and that's a good attitude for us all to have. Doesn't mean we remain steadfast in willful and unrepentant sin, that would be a reason to be separated from the body, but it does mean that we need to remain aware of the fact we fall short everyday and we are never, ever, worthy of God's grace.

Paul was the real deal that had a personal revelation from Jesus Christ himself. There is a bit of a difference. But, your point remains.

We could go round and round on here. I'll just say this. I believe in any situation, both sides have the responsibility to always do the right thing. If I get angry and yell at my wife, that is not justification for her to respond in kind. Her responsibility is to be loving and not get angry or yell. My responsibility is the same. If she is like that all the time, (loving and never angry)that doesn't give me license to be angry once in a while. (because she's always loving, and therefore I can get away with it) To apply that to the discussion of modesty, as a Christian man I am responsible for always guarding my heart and renewing my mind. Always keeping my focus on Christ, and never falling into lust. That's not a license though for women to not have standards and parade themselves around. Both sides need to do the right thing.
What I'm sensing from the comments in this thread is that there are some who say that legalism is bad, therefore we can't have any standards.
As for the topic of length of skirt, I know there are churches who get into whether it should be below the knee, slightly above, down to ankles, etc. I've never been in one of those churches, and I think that is way off base. I'm specifically referencing something that I would think most Christians would say, that goes too far. (see Beyonce, Mariah Carey, etc.) But maybe not.