Petra vs Stryper

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:38 am

brent wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:This is essentially saying that nobody was capable of truly understanding the scripture until we came along with our "superior" knowledge and culture, and I refuse to believe that for a moment. We need to understand the Bible from the perspective of the cultural context within which it was written, and it is a gross error to try to reshape it to fit our cultural sensibilities.
People in the OT knew and knew of God differently than we know him. Their perception of God is different than ours. God revealed himself directly and indirectly in different ways than he does now. God isn't sending angels to wrestle with people, pull their hips out of their sockets, rain fire and brimstone, flood the planet, drop hole cities under ground, turn people to salt, swallow disobedient televangelists in big fish, have a mercy seat here, etc.

The people in Leviticus needed to know how to wash their hands, poop away from their food, build houses for protection, etc. Much of the OT was written to people who weren't as educated and enlightened as we are today. What did the people before the book of Leviticus was written do? They died, pooped where they ate, and did all kinds of things that cut their lives short and sinned against God. So, your rationale does not work. It assumes that everyone had to know everything from the get go and that is not reality.

There are things in the bible hidden from us because it is not "time" for them to be revealed to us. There are things we think we know, that we are going to learn we were just wrong about. The same goes for people in the OT and NT. Only a relative few had a full revelation of God and the things to come. Until those people like Paul and John had those things revealed, the OT people did not have them and could not appreciate them. It was not their time. So....if God gave Paul and John things no man had ever known or seen until that time, what do you do with that?
I think you're missing the point of the ritual purity laws. It wasn't to make the Israelite people more healthy because they were unenlightened rubes who didn't know any better, it was to make them distinct from the cultures around them; as some Biblical translations put it, they were to be God's "peculiar treasure" (Exodus 19:5). There's also the possibility that certain laws were simply codifying what was already a common practice (do you really think the Israelites were in the habit of taking a dump in their dining rooms?). Yes, there may have been some practical benefit to the laws, but that wasn't their primary purpose, and I think your "Ancient people were too stupid for their own good" interpretation falls apart when we consider some other Old Testament laws such as prohibitions against eating pork, planting two kinds of seed in the same field, or wearing blended fabrics, so these passages really don't support your argument in favor of special revelation to the hopelessly ignorant.

I don't believe there is anything "hidden" in the Bible that is presently unknowable, and I would be curious to know your Biblical basis for believing so. Yes, God did reveal certain things to people in the past (whether they were truly unknowable before or God simply prompted them to see what was already right in front of them is, I suppose, a matter for debate), but those revelations became scripture and are no longer hidden. It would take a very compelling argument grounded in scripture to convince me that special revelation is a continuing phenomenon today and should be treated with the same authority as scripture itself. Frankly, it sounds suspiciously like trusting the "burning in your bosom" which is no more theologically valid than reading tea leaves.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by rexreed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:05 am

Petra and Stryper are so different that I do not think I would enjoy both bands on the same tour, not that it would happen in the first place.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by cvs2kids » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:58 am

Mountain Man wrote:I don't believe there is anything "hidden" in the Bible that is presently unknowable, and I would be curious to know your Biblical basis for believing so. Yes, God did reveal certain things to people in the past (whether they were truly unknowable before or God simply prompted them to see what was already right in front of them is, I suppose, a matter for debate), but those revelations became scripture and are no longer hidden. It would take a very compelling argument grounded in scripture to convince me that special revelation is a continuing phenomenon today and should be treated with the same authority as scripture itself. Frankly, it sounds suspiciously like trusting the "burning in your bosom" which is no more theologically valid than reading tea leaves.
Mountain Man, I'm following this with interest but need clarification what you mean by "Special Revelation"? Obviously, there are prophesies that we're still struggling with today, so I'm assuming you don't mean that. Is your argument that God is fully revealed in the bible, even though we struggle with the message he's trying to convey?
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by Shell » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:59 am

zak89 wrote:I'm pretty much decided against reading the book personally (I don't think I *want* to know the whole story here... ) but the key factor for me would be whether Michael's perspective is that of a Christian man who has fallen hard, and experienced (and can testify to) God's redeeming mercy, or if it's more a long the lines of "I'm a rebel, I play dirty and don't you dare judge me". From what I've seen from Mr Sweet lately, I feel fairly safe in assuming the latter. Obviously the marketing excerpts are meant to be provocative - that doesn't bother me really.

I mean, take a look at David - the "man after God's own heart". He had his share of moral failings (try, murder?), but try reading through Psalm 51 and seeing any sort of self-justification or glory. That's what so encouraging about the story of David's life - it's recorded in brutal honesty, and despite his achievements and faith, it's only by God's grace that he (or any one of us) can stand justified before God in the end. I pray (and expect) Michael Sweet's testimony will place him in such company.
Good points Zak. It is one thing to talk about what God's done in his life; it's another to tell people he's done things or is doing things his way no matter what. If his motives are not to please God and point other people towards Him, they're wrong. I am going to see if I can find a sample chapter and read it and decide then whether to read it. Other than hearing about what God has done in his life, I wouldn't care about reading about behind the scenes nonsense.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by cvs2kids » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:16 am

And to bring this back to Petra vs Stryper,

I would need to read the book to get a better understanding of Michael Sweet (and I probably won't TBH), but Stryper's look always bothered me. To sexified for a supposedly Christian.

The argument " I don't need religion to know Christ" is falasy in my eyes as well. Religous organizations have and still do let us down, however;

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 12:14-23
Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

We need to belong to the Church, which means belonging to a church. If we aren't part of a fellowship of believers who prays for us, lifts us up and helps us minister, then how can we meet the great commission?

As I get older I'm starting to really understand the following passage;

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There are many who identify themselves as Christian, but aren't living out the life that Christ intended. We had a great discussion in bible study on works vs belief, and really one won't exist without the other.

To me, too many believe, but don't understand there's a duty that comes with being offered eternal glory.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:52 pm

cvs2kids wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:I don't believe there is anything "hidden" in the Bible that is presently unknowable, and I would be curious to know your Biblical basis for believing so. Yes, God did reveal certain things to people in the past (whether they were truly unknowable before or God simply prompted them to see what was already right in front of them is, I suppose, a matter for debate), but those revelations became scripture and are no longer hidden. It would take a very compelling argument grounded in scripture to convince me that special revelation is a continuing phenomenon today and should be treated with the same authority as scripture itself. Frankly, it sounds suspiciously like trusting the "burning in your bosom" which is no more theologically valid than reading tea leaves.
Mountain Man, I'm following this with interest but need clarification what you mean by "Special Revelation"? Obviously, there are prophesies that we're still struggling with today, so I'm assuming you don't mean that. Is your argument that God is fully revealed in the bible, even though we struggle with the message he's trying to convey?
A finite text could never fully reveal an infinite God, so I'm not claiming that to be the case. What I am saying is that I think the truths contained in the Bible can be fully understood with the proper study. While some truths may require more research than others, I'm not convinced that there are any secrets locked away in the text for which we currently lack the key.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by Shell » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:00 pm

I get what you're saying; you do need to connect with other believers. Going to church isn't what makes you a Christian though. There are plenty of people who park their rears in church every week who don't behave like Christians. I grew up in a church that emphasized racking up a perfect church attendance record and pretty much judged you according to whether you fit into their little box or not, so that is a touchy area for me. I can understand where Michael is coming from about not wanting to be judged. When it gets right down to it, it's not what people think that counts; it's what God thinks that really matters. Pleasing God should be the focus of the Christian life, not trying to do things according to other people's specifications.

Part of Stryper's reasoning may have been they were trying to reach people who wouldn't have listened otherwise, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. You do have to be careful not to lose focus though, and in the atmosphere they were in, I can understand how that would happen too.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by brent » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:03 pm

Well, since it is not the end of the age, the bible says those revelations have yet to be revealed. While you can certainly get all essential doctrine from scripture. We have the Gospel of Christ and we have the golden rule. Since we have numerous lexicons, denominations, interpretations, biblical scholars writing diverse concordances and commentaries, plus all of the books in the "Christian" book stores...I'd say we do NOT have all truth plainly revealed in front of us.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by gman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:48 pm

I'm not convinced that there are any secrets locked away in the text for which we currently lack the key.
Hi. My name is Sean Hyman. I'm a former pastor and now a successful Wallstreet investor. I'd like to tell you about a proven secret investing strategy hidden within the pages of scripture. It's called the Biblical Money Code. I'm making the secret available free for a limited time. Just go to my website: moneycode12.com.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by brent » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:16 pm

That stuff is nutty.

How about the bible codes with TBN, Paul Crouch, etc written in the OT. I don't know if that would be a good thing or a bad thing.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by gman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:15 pm

I swear that guy is somehow making a ton of money off of multiple websites. There's the money code12 website, and I also hear a lot of other commercials pitching various websites that all end with a number like that. There's secretincome4, or something like that. It's supposedly to learn about a secret form of income used by the President. All the commercials claim that you can learn for free, but I'll bet the ultimate goal is to push some product. I wouldn't be surprised if it is one guy or one company behind all of it.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by Dan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:08 pm

gman wrote:I swear that guy is somehow making a ton of money off of multiple websites. There's the money code12 website, and I also hear a lot of other commercials pitching various websites that all end with a number like that. There's secretincome4, or something like that. It's supposedly to learn about a secret form of income used by the President. All the commercials claim that you can learn for free, but I'll bet the ultimate goal is to push some product. I wouldn't be surprised if it is one guy or one company behind all of it.
Whoa Gman? this doesn't surprise me, anymore info?
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by gman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:12 pm

Info on what? The president's secret income? I've never gone to the site and watched the video. I was proposing the idea that all the websites I hear commercials for like the biblical money code, Obama's secret income, or whatever else all have a number at the end of their address (moneycode12, secretincome4, etc.), and are perhaps run by the same entity. I thought of the biblical money code because MountainMan brought up no secrets hidden in scripture, and the commercial for it always makes me laugh. That's at least where my brain goes when people start talking about hidden stuff in the bible.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by brent » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:46 pm

The only bible math I like is be fruitful and multiply. That is my favorite kind of math.
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Re: Petra vs Stryper

Post by sue d. » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:05 pm

LOLOL! you're too much!
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