1987 Back To The Street?

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by executioner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:58 am

fiendik wrote:Hey, I love torrents and such! And is it really stealing if you would just get it on ebay anyway? After all, it not like the artist or record company are getting any money from me... I got 'bout a third of all my Petra stuff from the Russians... they're so generous. I see file sharing as about the same as borrowing a CD at the library and ripping it to mp3. At any rate, I'm gonna keep on "pirating" and hating all security software - I trust the hackers more than the security professionals.

You logic is so flawed; It's stealing no way around it. The one phrase that really sticks out for me is "they're so generous" If its not the actual artist giving it to you then it's stealing. You are taking money right out of Petra's hand by doing this. These "generous people" have stole it just like you.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by brent » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:37 am

fiendik wrote:Hey, I love torrents and such!
And you are a thief.
fiendik wrote:And is it really stealing if you would just get it on ebay anyway?
It is stealing if you are not paying for the license to listen to the music. When you buy a CD or DVD, you are not buying the content, you are buying the license to use it and the medium is just the delivery method. If you purchase something on ebay, you are buying either a used product, or a new product from a store. Money is changing hands. You are paying someone for the license they once paid for. There is nothing wrong with that. That said, I would always look to buy it direct from the artist to put more money in their pocket first.
fiendik wrote:I got 'bout a third of all my Petra stuff from the Russians...


They bootleg big time. I have projects there now going for $100 US on the black market. Everyone who invested their own time and money into those projects will not ever see a penny of that money. [/quote]
fiendik wrote:I see file sharing as about the same as borrowing a CD at the library and ripping it to mp3. At any rate, I'm gonna keep on "pirating" and hating all security software - I trust the hackers more than the security professionals.
Well, your logic is flawed. File sharing has killed an industry and did nothing to replace it. Going to the MP3 and ripping music is illegal. You can't possibly practice being a thief and be a Christian. You will reap what you sow. You will not benefit spiritually from something you have stolen. Your opinion of what is right and wrong does not change what the laws actually allow, the morality and how all of this affects artists. Hopefully, someone will break into your house and steal everything and everyone you have. THEN and only then you will understand what some people are living through as a result of idiots like you.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by Dan » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:53 am

I am enjoying this discussion, I believe the Internet has made us all thieves because I would imagine we all have watched something or listen to something on here that we do not own. The problem is the law has always been behind, not in sync with technology and terminology used to define it.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by executioner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:59 am

brent wrote:
fiendik wrote:Hey, I love torrents and such!
And you are a thief.
fiendik wrote:And is it really stealing if you would just get it on ebay anyway?
It is stealing if you are not paying for the license to listen to the music. When you buy a CD or DVD, you are not buying the content, you are buying the license to use it and the medium is just the delivery method. If you purchase something on ebay, you are buying either a used product, or a new product from a store. Money is changing hands. You are paying someone for the license they once paid for. There is nothing wrong with that. That said, I would always look to buy it direct from the artist to put more money in their pocket first.
fiendik wrote:I got 'bout a third of all my Petra stuff from the Russians...


They bootleg big time. I have projects there now going for $100 US on the black market. Everyone who invested their own time and money into those projects will not ever see a penny of that money.
fiendik wrote:I see file sharing as about the same as borrowing a CD at the library and ripping it to mp3. At any rate, I'm gonna keep on "pirating" and hating all security software - I trust the hackers more than the security professionals.
Well, your logic is flawed. File sharing has killed an industry and did nothing to replace it. Going to the MP3 and ripping music is illegal. You can't possibly practice being a thief and be a Christian. You will reap what you sow. You will not benefit spiritually from something you have stolen. Your opinion of what is right and wrong does not change what the laws actually allow, the morality and how all of this affects artists. Hopefully, someone will break into your house and steal everything and everyone you have. THEN and only then you will understand what some people are living through as a result of idiots like you.[/quote]

BINGO!!
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by executioner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:03 pm

Dan wrote:I am enjoying this discussion, I believe the Internet has made us all thieves because I would imagine we all have watched something or listen to something on here that we do not own. The problem is the law has always been behind, not in sync with technology and terminology used to define it.

As am I; I think we all do it to some manner because of the internet all be it unintentional, but someone like fiendik seems to do it intentional as a shortcut to get something for free and that is not only illegal but is morally wrong. I think in some ways the record labels and artists have shot themselves in the foot with making their product available, but because someone else is stupid or naïve doesn't give us the right to steal and take advantage of it.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by brent » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:39 pm

Sure they shot themselves in the foot. They wanted to maintain control of the final product QC, who could sell it, when and for how much. There is no money at the bottom. Ok, so now more people have more access to more crap music. What good is that? I am not saying all of the guys funding music labels and distribution deals with drug, arms, mob and moffia money were right in what they did. But, they knew business and they knew how to keep money coming in. There is no way to do that anymore.

Perhaps music would be more valuable if it weren't a bastardized, emotionless and in our face available all the time for nothing. People do not seek to value junk. They value what is hard to find....the priceless gems.
Now, we just dial up a Russian guy and get it for free. Classic.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by p-freak » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:53 pm

Dan wrote:I am enjoying this discussion, I believe the Internet has made us all thieves because I would imagine we all have watched something or listen to something on here that we do not own. The problem is the law has always been behind, not in sync with technology and terminology used to define it.
I was going to say "not much discussion going on here, just a bit of slamming, bashing and pounding (take it easy, Brent, take a deep breath, drink a beer, walk your dog, then come back and make your point without the blunt instruments....)", but then I continued reading your post. That is a very interesting point you're making. The law is behind because internet never existed until fairly recently. It developed unrestricted, so now a set of laws needs to be made that actually fits the environment we're dealing with. Internet is a world where a lot of stuff is shared, so I can imagine that there would a distinct difference between digital theft and physical theft.
brent wrote:Well, your logic is flawed. File sharing has killed an industry and did nothing to replace it. Going to the MP3 and ripping music is illegal. You can't possibly practice being a thief and be a Christian. You will reap what you sow. You will not benefit spiritually from something you have stolen. Your opinion of what is right and wrong does not change what the laws actually allow, the morality and how all of this affects artists. Hopefully, someone will break into your house and steal everything and everyone you have. THEN and only then you will understand what some people are living through as a result of idiots like you.
This is where you need to take your valium and drink a couple of beers. A tad bit harsh, quite unnecessarily so, and phrased a tiny bit too strongly (note the irony here :roll: ).

Not all countries have the same laws. Up until recently it was perfectly legal for me according to the laws of my country to download anything I wanted for free. When I buy a carrier for digital information (either a laptop, a hard disc, a CD-R or anything similar), I pay a small extra fee that I given to our national copyright administration organisation, who would distribute these profits among their registered members. So the artists get their due and I get my music for free. Now we are not allowed to download from illegal sites anymore, but I can still copy all the CDs and DVDs that my brothers and friends have free of charge and I can legally own a copy of any recording. So it's very nice that the US laws are different, but if I'm not a thief according to my laws, I'm not thief. Even if US laws would say something else...

And the moral issue is a completely different one and goes much deeper than just a few downloads.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by fiendik » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:59 pm

Yikes! I always thought everybody hated me before I attempted to make an online presence, but now I know it! It seems that nothing I say can't be attacked. Please note that I am heavily sarcastic and not everything should be taken exactly as it sounds (e.g. "...they're so generous."). Now, this conversation is bringing out some aspects that I'd not really thought about before. But is it wrong to borrow a CD (from the library or a friend), rip it to mp3, and listen to it without actually buying a CD? And what about music that isn't sold anymore?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the artist would actually get any money even if I bought it legally...
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by brent » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:10 pm

Copying music from library CDs is piracy, just as copying files from the internet is piracy. Read up. Google is your friend:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... F76OG.html

Technically speaking, only the person who paid for the rights to use the music (your friend, the original customer) has the rights to make copies. A royalty is paid on all tuners/receivers with the FM filters (to remove the high frequency noise so recording may be done) and all blank disc and tape media to compensate for the copying. You can listen to your own music, you just cannot distribute or sell copies.

The artist may not make more by you purchasing the disc. But, that is none of your business. You need to worry about you. Take Journey, Garth Brooks, The Eagles and others for example. They were paid a flat fee to have all production expenses covered and were given a guarantee for their album deals with Walmart. They got paid up front. There was a limited number of pressings. If you copied said CDs from the library, you are still breaking the law, regardless if they all got paid on the front side.

In the context of Petra, or Schlitzy, I buy one of everything at the show from their merch tables, even if I have it, to put money in their pockets.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by fiendik » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:22 pm

I don't really see why ripping a CD should be illegal, or why it would be morally wrong. Seems about the same to me as going to someone's house and listening to it there. Should I make sure that none of my friends listen to music that I bought because they didn't pay for it's use?
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by Dan » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:27 pm

Piracy and copying has been happening since the dawn of time, even Bible translations are copyrighted...

The fonts in this forum are copyrighted, the Petra Zone logo is copyrighted... Use of JPEG images is a copyrighted format translated...

Come on Brent... Ever video tape TV in 80's and 90s? ever make a mixed tape for the car or a friend?

Piracy, Piracy...

Libraries are piracy... books lent for free?? this harms the authors profits.

It is bigger than one man getting Petra songs for free.

BTW FrendK no one here hates you! it's the opposite! in fact I applaud you for bringing up a great topic even if it is in the wrong section.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by brent » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:01 pm

Dan,

The KJV is not copyright protected. It can't be. Neither can the earlier translations. The VERSIONS modifying content, making notes, adding notes, content, colors, study systems, etc can be trademarked and copyright protected. This is the only way people can make money on the bible.

If you have purchased the license for work on a CD, DVD, VHS, etc, it is legal for us to make copies of them for personal use, not for others.

Libraries do not violate copyright laws. Read up here:

http://www.librarylaw.com/Copyright_and_Libraries.html

Libraries DO buy books. They have dedicated sales channels to publishers. Sure, libraries can take donated books and materials. This is just the way it is.

When I was a kid, I had no idea about this stuff. I was an audiophile type though. So were my friends. We did not lend LPs to one another because we did not trust the other guys to use good turntables with the proper weight of tone arm, cartridge and anti-skate. I had pretty good tape machines and did not want tapes that had been played in car stereos and boom boxes in my decks. Tape shred and cassette chassis types could jack with my deck's transport and heads. All that is to say, I COULD have done it, but it was not likely. Again, it was not because I knew the law. Truth is, not many people paid attention AFAIR. So this is no pat on the back for sure.

There was one exception to the rule. My pal Dennis and I would go in half and half on new music releases. We would gamble half each. If we liked it, we would go back and buy a second copy and both have one. We did this with the first Stryper record, Yellow And Black Attack.

I would be willing to bet enterprise software theft is just THU-ROO THE ROOF, easily eclipsing the entertainment theft.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by Dan » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:41 pm

Yeah I know Brent I was exaggerating a bit. Google is making billions from piracy, how do they get away with it?
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by brent » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:22 pm

Dang dude. How is Google getting away with anything they do? Remember when the government was contemplating giving Google control of the next gen super internet, charging for it, regulating content, and letting the rest of the world have the slower, free internet?

PFreak...I don't have a dog to walk. Are you buying the beer? I don't drink beer. But, I might have a Long Island Tea, hold the Coke.
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Re: 1987 Back To The Street?

Post by Boray » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:58 am

fiendik wrote:I don't really see why ripping a CD should be illegal, or why it would be morally wrong. Seems about the same to me as going to someone's house and listening to it there. Should I make sure that none of my friends listen to music that I bought because they didn't pay for it's use?
Making mp3s of a CD that you own = legal.

Making mp3s of a CD that you don't own = illegal. (Library CD, borrowed from a friend etc).

Letting someone else copy your mp3s (or CDs) = illegal.

Copying someone elses mp3s = illegal.


(Provided that you not are the creator of the music yourself or have the permission from the actual copyright holder etc.)
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