2 Guys tour dates

[BForm]

I know I've said enough already about whether or not we really need big concert events in the church. But I sincerely believe that God, in His Word and through the power of the Holy Spirit, has given us everything we need to reach the lost and minister to one another without ever plugging in an amplifier. I remember hearing John MacArthur ask an interesting question. "If the power went out on the modern church, would the Holy Spirit leave?" Whether you like the man or not, it's a great point. If the Word of God was naturally received, then we should all be looking for the latest and greatest methods brought to us by the world's best marketing gurus. But it's not naturally received. It's given and received in the power of the Holy Spirit, and God has laid out everything the church needs in His Word.

However, I do believe there is nothing wrong with churches using this as an opportunity to bless members and as an opportunity to invite people in to hear good music and the gospel preached. I know this is going to sound really negative but I've just witnessed this too many times. In the end I think a big part of the problem is that too many pastors are driven by the same lust for achievement that the rest of us in the "secular" world sometimes struggle with, except they can hide it behind spiritual terms. If they want to see the church grow quickly so they can pat themselves on the back and receive the praise of men at their association meetings, the best way to do that is to bring in the events that will draw in the greatest number of potential members/tithers with the least amount of effort. The surest way to do that, to borrow an expression from Brent, is to bring in the flavor of the month regardless of whether true spiritual quality is present or not. This leaves II Guys in a tough spot.

Petranite, I'm not including you in on this. I think the situation for professional promoters has to be driven by economics unless you have very deep pockets. I find myself agreeing with you pretty much across the board.

[BForm]

O.K. This is indirectly related to this discussion, but related nonetheless, and I couldn't resist putting a link to this fantastic article. I spent a lot of time in my early Christian years living in the shadow of Willow Creek Community church and saw the fruit, or lack of, in the early years of the "seeker sensitive" movement. Now read this shocking confession from the leadership of the church that has, in some way, influenced nearly every area of Christian culture in North America:

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=26768

God has given the church everything she needs to do His work. We waste our time when we become fixated on the latest and greatest quick results methodology.

[SamScales]

Thanks for the link to that article. I found it very interesting reading.
It's amazing how far reaching our mistakes can be.....

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

...and boy have we headed into that direction. I'm glad they realized what was happening.

It's so amazing how we can miss the most simplistic thing - read God's Word, study it, allow His Holy Spirit to guide you into His truths, pray and spend time with the Lord.

In my travels and doing concerts, I've seen some churches deep in the Word, and others having no depth but all the programs, the fun fluffy stuff, but it's people don't even know how to glean the treasures from God's Word for their lives.

I've been reading the discussion in this thread and it's been very interesting to see all the perspectives. What a great topic.

There's something I do want to say. Someone said that John and Bob could go out just for expenses...........my question is, if this is what you DO (as a job/ministry), how do you make a living with just expenses? How do you pay for your car insurance, your phone payments, your rent or if you have a house your housepayment, it's insurance, the light bill, etc....

These are the issues that I struggle with.......I'm a singer/songwriter/minister of music, people hear me play somewhere and want me to come and minister but "by the way, we can't pay you anything. But trust and believe God will supply all your needs".

Ummm.....well, I think He supplies a lot of times through His people.

Unfortunately I've had to learn to say NO, because with rising gasoline prices, I just can't afford to come for free, but right now I will come for a love offering (which hopefully should cover my expenses), because my heart is to minister and you can't put earthly value on a person's life changed.

When get booked into a church or venue, I need to take into consideration, I need new tires for my truck that I travel with, brakes that need to be fixed, car insurance needs to be paid, so does the phonebill. I'm blessed that my husband has a job (which doesn't pay much, but it covers the rent and a few other bills).
So even if I come for just expenses paid (which is hopefully for all my gasoline, food and lodging), then I still have not covered some of my living expenses, nor the upkeep and maintenance on my vehicle.

..........and I'm just an "Indie" artist..........

[misterbob]

...I don't say much anymore.

I have read through the last 6 exhausting pages and although I find many points stimulating, I also find that none of the business talk (especially the offers made referring to "what is a fair amount?" or whatever it was called) has any place in a public forum. Discussion on how the business works or doesn't work is fine but the rest is none of anyone's business.

John and Bob don't work for us folks!

Go ahead and flame me if you'd like...and i know some will...but we have much better and bigger fish to fry don't we?

[sue d.]

You're right, Mr. Bob. Making offers on a public message board is not appropriate. It should be done privately between the two parties... not the whole world.

Petranite, I was simply asking what you felt was a fair asking price, not to make an offer on a public board.

If you would like to discuss this, please email or call me. I left you a private message, but no reply yet. You have no email link in your signature, nor does your website function. You don't list your last name, so I'm not exactly sure who you are. I have a number of contacts named "Tim."

As far as the 'secrecy' that gman referred to -- there is no secrecy. If you are a legitimate promoter and would like to know what it takes to book II Guys, just send me an email or phone call, and I'll tell you.

Wages and income is not something that is normally broadcast to the general public, unless you are employed by a public service, such as a public school or other government agency.

[petranite]

In my defense I was asked "what I thought was fair" Well I aswered that specifically because I have learned if you use general numbers people jump all over you. So if you don't want to know publicly then don't ask. I didn't want to answer that question openly but was repeatedly called out on it so I am being straight. I've shot straight continually on this board during this discussion. I've ducked no question and defended everything about faith,finance,promotion, fairness, greed, etc..ect...ect.... You can disagree with me all day long but I tried to keep financial spefics vague and general but was implied that I was inflated and unrealistic so I defended my stats and numbers.

Sarcastic Note To Self: Don't get specific or offer specific evidence on his board. Oh ya don't use general conversation either lest you be quoted and be made to look crazy.

In all seriousness folks I love J&B and all of Petra this has been a great topic that has brought out a lot of food for thought on both sides. I had a feeling this would ground to a hault once I made a specific proposal. Take J&B out of the proposal and put generic band "A" in their place and then discuss this whole scenario. Perhaps people would be more objective to the whole thing. This discussion was started with a "specific" problem and a specific band, concerning specific business ideas. As long as we keep it general we can all argue in circles but when we get specific people start taking sides. It is funnny to me that I can get pushed in a corner repeatedly about what I think is fair and nothing is said but as soon as I put down what I think is fair now it is wrong. Sorry folks if I'm wrong for doing that but "the evil promoters that won't book 2guys for greedy bottom line financial non ministry reasons" have a right to defend themselves or their perspective. Yes by the way that quote just now is an exageration but man does it ever have some cold truth in it to general perspectives held by many people on this board.

I think of everyone on this board as friends sharing a common interest and love and for some an obsession. That would be Petra but more importantly it is a desire to share the Gospel and connect others with Christ. Which ever side you fall on in this topic (or even if your a floater in the middle) we still have a mission to spread the Gospel. I hope those that feel supporting 2guys monthly is a waste will support another ministry with their money or donate time or whatever GOD is moving them to do. Those that want to support 2guys financially then go forit. God will bless that too. With that being said if you see dates for 2guys in florida for 2008 then maybe, just maybe Sue D and Tim worked something out or maybe some other promter is willing to step up to the plate and take a swing at this show. Either way I encourage you to support your local shows whenever possible. There are a lot of great artists and promters out there that need the support.

Tim

Tim

[gman]

I know we talked about a fund to help with putting on II Guys shows. Apparently there was such a fund, throuhg paypal or something. I couldn't find any more information about it at the time? Can we get that information posted here? It's easy enough, and free to create a button for paypal cart, if that has not already been done. If that information were stickied on this board, maybe more people would be aware and contribute.

GMan