Fire By Nite w/ Petra on Youtube

[Edward]

We are involved in a spiritual battle (although it has been won by Jesus' death on the cross) in the sense that the enemy is going to throw everything he can at us to make us take our eyes off God and not live like we have the victory; that's what that means to me. The enemy has been defeated, yes, but he's still at work in a fallen world and we need to treat him like he's been defeated. I think how we go about doing that is where we run into the differences. We need to be aware of Satan's schemes and tell him to go back where he belongs, we want no part of him, and we do have the authority to do that as Christians because we're covered by Jesus' sacrifice for us. There isn't going to be a demon behind every bush; the enemy very often attacks in what we're dealing with in our everyday lives, and he doesn't want us to be aware of what he's doing. We have the choice to trust God or not with what we're dealing with.

You have a mix of several ideas there. I get what you are saying. BUT, if we have truly been crucified with Christ, the old man is dead. THAT is what you are fighting with. You are fighting with yourself and your ability to surrender. That is not the devil or his demons having control or war with you.

The spiritual warfare thing needs to be defined. As these people teach it, spiritual warfare is not about us fighting with ourselves and failing to surrender to God's perfect will. They say that we must constantly say some magic words, use Jesus' name, talk to the devil and the demons. They say that the devil and his demons can make you sick, take your life, your money, etc and by talking to these spirits, etc, they must not do that. According to them, your life will be free from the devil and his influences because you speak it. This is certainly NOT true. We know what the devil's job is. We know that he has no power on his own. God allows him and his followers to do what they do. So, unless your will is God's will, just telling Satan to stop it is not going to cut it.

[separateunion]

They are protected by the Shepard.

Jack Shepard?

[Shell]

I know what you're saying here too, Edward. We're not promised a problem free existence or that we will be handed everything we might ask for or told that if we don't get everything we ask for it's because of Satan. That "blab it and grab it, nothing bad will ever happen to you" doctrine isn't anywhere in the Bible. We are promised we can trust God with our circumstances. And you are right about the battle being with our old and new natures. Perhaps "resisting" or "standing against" are better words to use concerning the enemy. The enemy can't remain in an atmosphere of praise and trust in God, he has to flee when that is the case. We do have the choice to go God's way or our own.

[Vic]

We are involved in a spiritual battle (although it has been won by Jesus' death on the cross) in the sense that the enemy is going to throw everything he can at us to make us take our eyes off God and not live like we have the victory; that's what that means to me. The enemy has been defeated, yes, but he's still at work in a fallen world and we need to treat him like he's been defeated. I think how we go about doing that is where we run into the differences. We need to be aware of Satan's schemes and tell him to go back where he belongs, we want no part of him, and we do have the authority to do that as Christians because we're covered by Jesus' sacrifice for us. There isn't going to be a demon behind every bush; the enemy very often attacks in what we're dealing with in our everyday lives, and he doesn't want us to be aware of what he's doing. We have the choice to trust God or not with what we're dealing with.

You have a mix of several ideas there. I get what you are saying. BUT, if we have truly been crucified with Christ, the old man is dead. THAT is what you are fighting with. You are fighting with yourself and your ability to surrender. That is not the devil or his demons having control or war with you.

The spiritual warfare thing needs to be defined. As these people teach it, spiritual warfare is not about us fighting with ourselves and failing to surrender to God's perfect will. They say that we must constantly say some magic words, use Jesus' name, talk to the devil and the demons. They say that the devil and his demons can make you sick, take your life, your money, etc and by talking to these spirits, etc, they must not do that. According to them, your life will be free from the devil and his influences because you speak it. This is certainly NOT true. We know what the devil's job is. We know that he has no power on his own. God allows him and his followers to do what they do. So, unless your will is God's will, just telling Satan to stop it is not going to cut it.

I think I now understand what you mean by WOF, demon-bashing theology. You're very right. There are many aspects of the Christian faith, with a relationship with Jesus Christ being transcendent above all other things. When the WOF/demon crushing aspect is elevated beyond its relative importance, the Gospel becomes distorted and becomes all about manipulation rather than faith.

[knotodiswrld]

While the show is cool, it definitely stinks of Word-of-Faith/Charismatic doctrine.

Please ... PLEASE ... do not automatically associate WOF with "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" doctrine. Every major Pentecostal denomination is opposed to W.O.F. prosperity gospel message.

Equating "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" with "WOF" is like Equating "Baptist" with the doctrines and activities of Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas (you know the ones that chant "God Hates [homosexuals]" and "Thank God For Dead Soldiers" ).

Would Baptists be offended if I associated all Baptists with Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church? I should think so. Well, Pentecostals and Charismatics are just as offended at the equally erroneous association with WOF.

Now that I have that out of the way, the term "Spiritual Warfare" does not necessarily refer to the sort of WOF, demon-bashing theology against which you rightly speak.

The Petra songs "Get On Your Knees and Fight Like A Man", "Occupy", "Secret Weapon", "More Power To Ya'" and "Minefield" all cover aspects of what we mean by "Spiritual Warfare".

What we mean by "Spiritual Warfare" is summed up on 2 Cor 10:4-5,

4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

The KJV begins with "The Weapons of our warfare are not carnal", thus giving rise to the phrase "Spiritual Warfare". But it is our own thoughts, as well as arguments and pretensions that are the strongholds we pull down.

If there were no more fight to be fought, why would Paul say of his own struggle in 1 Cor 9:26

Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

There is a fight, and it is not like a man beating the air. The struggle is a daily fight to deny the flesh and walk in the spirit. That is a fight that we will fight every day.

If there is no fight, why does Paul say in 2 Timothy 4:7 as he knew his life was about end, "I have fought the good fight"?

I realize there are a small number of people out there for whom Christianity is more about satan than about Christ. More about casting out demons than about preaching the Gospel. More about "deliverance" than Salvation. More about satan trying to infect us than about the Blood of Christ. But don't make the mistake of thinking this is what everyone who uses the words "Spiritual Warfare" means.

Edward, I understand what you are speaking against. And I agree. But the doctrine against which you speak is a perversion of what most people mean when they say "Spiritual Warfare".

When most people say "Spiritual Warfare", they don't mean anything you couldn't find in some of Petra's greatest songs.

You mention true spiritual warfare being a fight against our inability to surrender. I think it's more accurate to say that it is our struggle to daily, or sometimes even hourly surrender


On a completely different note, about 7 years ago, I actually got to meet Blaine Bartel, the blond headed star of "Fire By Night". I was a youth pastor at the time and he came to town for a youth ministry seminar. I actually got to talk with him about his time doing the Fire By Night videos.

He said he is still amazed at how far and wide ... and for how long ... people have watched and used those videos. They actually made those for a fairly small audience. They had no idea they would become so big.

[Edward]

While the show is cool, it definitely stinks of Word-of-Faith/Charismatic doctrine.

Please ... PLEASE ... do not automatically associate WOF with "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" doctrine. Every major Pentecostal denomination is opposed to W.O.F. prosperity gospel message.

Equating "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" with "WOF" is like Equating "Baptist" with the doctrines and activities of Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka Kansas (you know the ones that chant "God Hates [homosexuals]" and "Thank God For Dead Soldiers" ).

Would Baptists be offended if I associated all Baptists with Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church? I should think so. Well, Pentecostals and Charismatics are just as offended at the equally erroneous association with WOF.

Now that I have that out of the way, the term "Spiritual Warfare" does not necessarily refer to the sort of WOF, demon-bashing theology against which you rightly speak.

The Petra songs "Get On Your Knees and Fight Like A Man", "Occupy", "Secret Weapon", "More Power To Ya'" and "Minefield" all cover aspects of what we mean by "Spiritual Warfare".

What we mean by "Spiritual Warfare" is summed up on 2 Cor 10:4-5,

4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

The KJV begins with "The Weapons of our warfare are not carnal", thus giving rise to the phrase "Spiritual Warfare". But it is our own thoughts, as well as arguments and pretensions that are the strongholds we pull down.

If there were no more fight to be fought, why would Paul say of his own struggle in 1 Cor 9:26

Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

There is a fight, and it is not like a man beating the air. The struggle is a daily fight to deny the flesh and walk in the spirit. That is a fight that we will fight every day.

If there is no fight, why does Paul say in 2 Timothy 4:7 as he knew his life was about end, "I have fought the good fight"?

I realize there are a small number of people out there for whom Christianity is more about satan than about Christ. More about casting out demons than about preaching the Gospel. More about "deliverance" than Salvation. More about satan trying to infect us than about the Blood of Christ. But don't make the mistake of thinking this is what everyone who uses the words "Spiritual Warfare" means.

Edward, I understand what you are speaking against. And I agree. But the doctrine against which you speak is a perversion of what most people mean when they say "Spiritual Warfare".

When most people say "Spiritual Warfare", they don't mean anything you couldn't find in some of Petra's greatest songs.

You mention true spiritual warfare being a fight against our inability to surrender. I think it's more accurate to say that it is our struggle to daily, or sometimes even hourly surrender


On a completely different note, about 7 years ago, I actually got to meet Blaine Bartel, the blond headed star of "Fire By Night". I was a youth pastor at the time and he came to town for a youth ministry seminar. I actually got to talk with him about his time doing the Fire By Night videos.

He said he is still amazed at how far and wide ... and for how long ... people have watched and used those videos. They actually made those for a fairly small audience. They had no idea they would become so big.

It is true that some Pentecostals and Charismatics do not hold to the WOF beliefs, but most of them do. Check out who attends the WOF conferences. I have mixed for almost all of the WOF'ers you see on TV.

[knotodiswrld]

It is true that some Pentecostals and Charismatics do not hold to the WOF beliefs, but most of them do.

Do you have a statistical study to back up the assertion that "most of them do"? It simply isn't true. Every Single major Trinitarian Pentecostal denomination repudiates their doctrine: Assemblies of God, Church of God (Cleveland, TN), Church of God in Christ, Church of God of Prophecy, Pentecostal Holiness, Four Square Gospel ... they all repudiate such teachings.

Now, sure, we show up at WOF events occasionally. Sometimes it's because they have a singer we want to hear. (Mylon LeFevre was at one I went to.) Sometimes it's pure curiosity. What is this guy going to say next? And sometimes it's because we don't want to speak against someone's teachings until we hear those teachings for ourselves. Sometimes we come strictly for the praise and worship.

And, sadly, some people show up just because of the speaker's celebrity status.

I believe you when you say you've mixed for the WOF teachers. But I have been intimately involved in Pentecostal Ministry since "Midnight Oil" was a new release.

I promise you, most Pentecostals do NOT believe or follow WOF doctrines.

However, their teachings are very, very attractive, and very manipulative. I frequently find myself having to combat some of their teachings. Their teachings worm their way in, as another poster observed, into lots of churches, not just Pentecostal ones. I first encountered such teachings when they were worming their way into a Methodist congregation of which I was a part. No one is immune to this attack.

[separateunion]

WOF came out of the Pentecostal movement. The majority of Pentecostals/Charismatics may not claim to be part of WOF, but Pentecostalism teeters on the edge of WOF.

[Edward]

It is true that some Pentecostals and Charismatics do not hold to the WOF beliefs, but most of them do.

Do you have a statistical study to back up the assertion that "most of them do"? It simply isn't true. Every Single major Trinitarian Pentecostal denomination repudiates their doctrine: Assemblies of God, Church of God (Cleveland, TN), Church of God in Christ, Church of God of Prophecy, Pentecostal Holiness, Four Square Gospel ... they all repudiate such teachings.

Now, sure, we show up at WOF events occasionally. Sometimes it's because they have a singer we want to hear. (Mylon LeFevre was at one I went to.) Sometimes it's pure curiosity. What is this guy going to say next? And sometimes it's because we don't want to speak against someone's teachings until we hear those teachings for ourselves. Sometimes we come strictly for the praise and worship.

And, sadly, some people show up just because of the speaker's celebrity status.

I believe you when you say you've mixed for the WOF teachers. But I have been intimately involved in Pentecostal Ministry since "Midnight Oil" was a new release.

I promise you, most Pentecostals do NOT believe or follow WOF doctrines.

However, their teachings are very, very attractive, and very manipulative. I frequently find myself having to combat some of their teachings. Their teachings worm their way in, as another poster observed, into lots of churches, not just Pentecostal ones. I first encountered such teachings when they were worming their way into a Methodist congregation of which I was a part. No one is immune to this attack.

I have no statistics. I only know what I see. If you look on Benny Hinn's stage at his events, the pastors seated behind him are the local, regional and national leaders of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. There are more for him than against. Benny has been an Assemblies of God pastor, non-denominational Charismatic pastor, etc. Some of the biggest teachers in the WOF movement are Pentecostals and Charismatics. Study up on them, their roots and what their churches teach. Read up on TD Jakes. He is a Oneness Pentecostal. Kenneth Haggin, the father of the modern day WOF (he rewrote a book by D. R. McConnell and was BUSTED for it) was a Pentecostal. Rhema, his church and school in Tulsa (BA actually), OK is still there to this day, pumping out students. Jim Bakker was an AOG pastor preaching the WOF thing. He had the support of the AOG. I could go on.

BTW, Mylon LeFevre is a WOF'er too. He and Copeland are buddies. Mylon's gave Kenny his bus, which is sitting on Copeland's ministry property minus a transmission. That little tidbit was free as it did not pertain to the subject at hand.

[knotodiswrld]

I have no statistics. I only know what I see.

Then what you have is an impression based only on events you have witnessed. You must be careful about stating such impressions as objective fact. Saying, "I get the impression from what I have seen that most Pentecostals are WOF," would be one thing. To state, as if you had done or had access to scientifically conducted studies, "Most Pentecostals are WOF," is misleading and dishonest … not to mention incorrect.

If you look on Benny Hinn's stage at his events, the pastors seated behind him are the local, regional and national leaders of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

There's a lot more than just Pentecostals up there. Hinn isn't picky. But you seem to think that being there indicates support of his teachings. That's an awfully big leap. One thing you will notice among Pentecostals is our willingness to work with those with whose theology we disagree in order to reach the lost for Christ. Of course our local leaders are going to show up when they're invited. We know that there will be lots of hurting people show up there who will need ministry when Benny leaves. It would be irresponsible not to be there in order to make that connection with them right away.

There are more for him than against. 

When it comes to Christ, you are either for Him or against Him. But when it comes to human beings, there's a lot more gray area. We can oppose his teachings without being "against" him as a person.

As an Assemblies of God minister myself, I must say that pretty much all of my colleagues agree with me on this. WOF doctrine is false, and we will teach the truth, but Hinn and other have a judge far greater than us.

Your statement that "more are for him than against" goes against everything I have seen and heard, and I don't think George Barna has ever done a survey that confirms or contradicts your assertion. Should we see if we can convince him to help us out?

In fact, the "Deception in the church" website, a decidedly anti-Pentecostal website, had this to say about the supposed support Benny gets from the Pentecostal movement in general in this article

Terry Peretti, who works with AG missionaries in Europe, filed this report on Hinn's Rome Crusade:
"The Benny Hinn crusade held in Rome November 9 and 10, saw the largest gathering of evangelicals ever at one place and one time in Italy. Several reliable sources estimated that around 5,000 people attended the crusade.
"The crusade proved to be disastrous in that the Italian Assemblies of God boycotted the meetings which left the meeting to be supported by the independent Pentecostal groups. Of the independent groups, several pulled out of the crusade effort because of what they felt was being 'forced' upon them. They did not want to be party to what appeared as a TBN American TV show designed to be that, a 'big show.'
"Several other independent pastors along with their people were 'shocked' the first night because Hinn never once opened his Bible or preached. The second night the rest were shocked by Hinn's attempt to 'ecumenicalize' the crusade by courting the Catholic church and talking about meeting with the Pope. The interpreter refused to continue interpreting and another interpreter had to be called to the platform. The Italian music group refused to come to the platform to sing when they were called.
"The Italian independent Pentecostal pastors have agreed to meet and sign a declaration of disassociazione [disassociation] from Benny Hinn and his crusades. The Italian believers do not want to close the door on the Holy Spirit, but they don't want to close the door on the preaching of the Word of God either. It appears that Benny Hinn will never be invited back to Italy again, at least not by the evangelicals."

Benny has been an Assemblies of God pastor, 

Look, he passed the test, had the education required, and promised to abide by our constitution and bylaws. At the time, he had recanted much of his WOF teachings (though he has clearly drifted back toward them). Right or wrong, we decided to give him a chance. The details are a little sketchy, but the relationship didn't last long. The AG believes in confidentiality and won't say much about Hinn's resignation. Hinn did resign, and by some reports claimed to have been pressured to do so. However, the AG will not reveal confidential details, and I've not even found a statement I can confirm to be Hinn's on the matter. All we know is that as of 1996, he is not an AG Minister any more.

Some of the biggest teachers in the WOF movement are Pentecostals and Charismatics. 

Again, that's like saying "Fred Phelps is a Baptist". Does the fact that Phelps calls himself a Baptist prove that all Baptists believe God hates homosexuals and that God is personally killing our soldiers overseas? Of course not. So stop thinking that the fact that WOF teachers call themselves Pentecostal somehow implies that Pentecostals support WOF heresies. Do Baptists believe that God hates homosexuals? Surely they do, since Fred Phelps does.

 Study up on them, their roots and what their churches teach.

If by "them" you mean Pentecostal churches, I've been one of the ones teaching it since 1994. If by "them" you mean "WOF Teachers", I know all about their roots and I've been teaching against their doctrines since … well … 1994.

… TD Jakes. He is a Oneness Pentecostal. 

My understanding is that TD Jakes has been hard to pin down on the Oneness issue. Oneness theology is clearly heresy, of course, and I have my doubts that anyone adhering to it can even be saved. I know that sounds harsh, but in order to be saved, one must have faith in Christ. This requires a proper understanding of the nature of Christ Himself. (i.e. proper "Christology") Oneness adherents have a very twisted Christology, and I question whether it might be so corrupted as to prevent saving faith.

But that's getting off on a whole other topic. Whether TD Jakes is truly "Oneness", I'm not actually sure.

 Kenneth Haggin, the father of the modern day WOF (he rewrote a book by D. R. McConnell and was BUSTED for it) was a Pentecostal.

Again, that's like saying "Fred Phelps is a Baptist". For either statement to be true, it requires a pretty loose definition of "Baptist" or "Pentecostal".

Jim Bakker was an AOG pastor preaching the WOF thing. He had the support of the AOG.

True enough, but that was in the 80's, when WOF was just coming into stride. Honestly, it caught us off guard and we weren't sure how to deal with it just yet. Just as it took a few years back in 1916 to come to agreement about how to handle the Oneness heretics in our midst, it took a little while to come to agreement on a unified response to WOF. I wish we'd reacted faster, but I think the leadership was surprised at how quickly and how pervasively the doctrine was spreading back then.

Bakker seems a very different man since being released from prison. For what it's worth, the Wikki article on Bakker states:

Bakker has renounced his past teachings on prosperity theology, saying they were wrong. In his 1996 book, I Was Wrong, he admitted that the first time he actually read the Bible all the way through was in prison, and that it made him realize he had taken certain passages out of context - passages which he had used as "proof texts" to back up his prosperity teachings. He wrote:

“

The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushed to think that I led so many people astray. I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet!

BTW, Mylon LeFevre is a WOF'er too. He and Copeland are buddies. 

Yeah, I noticed that. Kind of saddened me. Do you remember the feeling of sitting in a civic center or Colosseum, waiting for the music to start, when you heard,

Yah Maaah
Yahmah Yey hey ya.

Yah Maaah
Yahmah Yey hey ya

OH MAN!!! What a rush!

Mylon Lefevre and Broken Heart ...definitely the SECOND greatest band of that era.

But hey, if The Holy Spirit can bring Bakker out of the dark, surely Lefevre can be brought back home, right?

Incidentally, in case you need official documentation, this official position paper from the Assemblies of God on the doctrine of "Positive Confession" demonstrates clearly that we are opposed to the very core of WOF teachings.

[Shell]

Sigh, I went to a number of great Mylon and Broken Heart concerts back in the day. "Crack The Sky" was another great song.

[knotodiswrld]

Did you see any of the concerts they did with WhiteHeart? They did a Mylon & Broken Heart / WhiteHeart tour which they named "The Heart Attack Tour".

But MAN, what a great show that was.

[Shell]

Yeah, I did see them when they toured with Whiteheart...I think that was one of the last times I saw them before they disbanded.

[p-freak]

Another video. This one has Petra accepting the Dove Award for Group of the Year in 1991.

[sue d.]

Nice! I've never seen that one before.