Faith & Freedom ...the other side

[gman]

No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I agree that it's the chruch's responsibility, and our responsibility, but I'm done with the idea that the church has failed. I personally see that as a ruse. I believe the Gov't has done an effective job of creating an entitlement class, that really shouldn't be getting squat. Liberals hold that class up as poor and needy, and say, see the church is failing, while the church continues to help the poor and needy as it always has.

[brent]

I vote the best that I can knowing:

All of the people on the ballot are corruptible and/or corrupt.
All of the people willing to get into politics have to get in dirty to win, and will therefore get dirty to stay in office, and will be dirty in office.
All of the people in politics have issues. All of them have a history. Sometimes they are expected to be sinless, just in case the unexpected election for public office comes along. That is retarded. Everyone has failed at something, sinned, etc. I would much rather vote for the honest guy who has learned from his mistakes than someone acting like a saint.
There is little our voting can change. The US government has the keys to the data, and can manipulate that data at will. Any computer/software based voting system has a back door.
The democrats do not want a real vote, because they cannot win a real vote (with real, legit, living citizens). They are moving to keep states from removing illegal voters from the roles so they can continue to vote, so Obama can get a payback for all of this crap he is doing for them.
The republicans are idiots and cannot handle control. We have seen that.
It doesn't matter IMO. I predict that Obama will be the last president we have, and this next election will be the last. We are upside down and China is getting ready to put it's foot on our neck. Maybe Apple can loan the government some money.

I have alot of the same views; I do believe if Obama wins this will be our last election for President, and also see a senerio where some states will consider breaking off from the U.S. Did you know when Texas was its own Republic and when they agreed to become part of the U.S. that part of the agreement was that at anytime after a 5 year waiting period that Texas could break apart again from the U.S. if they deem it financially responsible? I know this is far fetched but there are some Texas elected officials that have brought this up to the public and Texas State Senate in the last few years. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it could and there are elected officials seriously looking at the options we have as a state.

After things get crazy, I am headed to Texas.

[brent]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

So you want to quit the race because you feel its a lost cause? God has never given you that option as a Christian.
Our Forefathers came to America because of big government, because government was involved in every aspect of their lives back in Europe; This includes anything from religious freedom, to supressing the poor, to high taxation and I believe my Forefathers were correct.
No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I don't like it when people tie any country, king, political system, movement, etc to God. We believers are citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven. It does not matter where any of us live, or who we are subject to. The world can go to crap and it does not matter. Giving up on my country's leadership does not have anything to do with my faith in God, or my salvation. If my country goes down the crapper because of sin, then who am I to stop it? All I can do is all I can do. Who says that the USA is supposed to last any longer? Maybe it is time. We have already lasted longer than any other Republic. Our government is a representation of the average idiot American. How can I say that? The politicians are a product of our education and economic systems, etc. They aren't some alien being from another planet. So, nobody has the answer or the ability to fix it. This is why people will be willing to give everything up to the antichrist (person, system, whatever).

[executioner]

No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I agree that it's the chruch's responsibility, and our responsibility, but I'm done with the idea that the church has failed. I personally see that as a ruse. I believe the Gov't has done an effective job of creating an entitlement class, that really shouldn't be getting squat. Liberals hold that class up as poor and needy, and say, see the church is failing, while the church continues to help the poor and needy as it always has.

To a point the church has failed; The Catholics are the only church that the majority of their missions budget goes into helping their local communities. I know with the SBC(which I attend) about 80% of a churches mission budget goes to the head office in Atlanta and they distribute it mostly to the international community. I'm on the missions committee at my church and over the last few years we have fought tooth & nail with the SBC to keep more of our missions offerings here locally. I will say about 60% of our budget we now use for the local community.

[executioner]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

So you want to quit the race because you feel its a lost cause? God has never given you that option as a Christian.
Our Forefathers came to America because of big government, because government was involved in every aspect of their lives back in Europe; This includes anything from religious freedom, to supressing the poor, to high taxation and I believe my Forefathers were correct.
No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I don't like it when people tie any country, king, political system, movement, etc to God. We believers are citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven. It does not matter where any of us live, or who we are subject to. The world can go to crap and it does not matter. Giving up on my country's leadership does not have anything to do with my faith in God, or my salvation. If my country goes down the crapper because of sin, then who am I to stop it? All I can do is all I can do. Who says that the USA is supposed to last any longer? Maybe it is time. We have already lasted longer than any other Republic. Our government is a representation of the average idiot American. How can I say that? The politicians are a product of our education and economic systems, etc. They aren't some alien being from another planet. So, nobody has the answer or the ability to fix it. This is why people will be willing to give everything up to the antichrist (person, system, whatever).

We are blinded by the "Angel of Light"

[brent]

No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I agree that it's the chruch's responsibility, and our responsibility, but I'm done with the idea that the church has failed. I personally see that as a ruse. I believe the Gov't has done an effective job of creating an entitlement class, that really shouldn't be getting squat. Liberals hold that class up as poor and needy, and say, see the church is failing, while the church continues to help the poor and needy as it always has.

To a point the church has failed; The Catholics are the only church that the majority of their missions budget goes into helping their local communities. I know with the SBC(which I attend) about 80% of a churches mission budget goes to the head office in Atlanta and they distribute it mostly to the international community. I'm on the missions committee at my church and over the last few years we have fought tooth & nail with the SBC to keep more of our missions offerings here locally. I will say about 60% of our budget we now use for the local community.

SBC churches can do what they want. They are independent. Our church does missions work aside from the SBC. We still send money for SBC missions work. We even go to other states and to foreign nations on our own. Our pastoral staff, small groups and Sunday classes adopted local missions with labor and/or money . Some of them volunteer at City Union Mission (a homeless shelter and rehabilitation center), Juvenile Detention Center, etc. We offer community aid and special aid through the deacons to church family members, providing food and financial assistance services. All churches need to get off of their rears and do something for somebody. I think the Methodists are pretty good at this as well. They are usually well represented in civic organizations, secret societies, etc. They are usually pretty good about meeting people's physical needs, more so than spiritual IMO. I can say that because I was on staff at the largest Methodist Church in the USA, and a good, "healthy" one in OK.

Catholic Charities does have an excellent presence in the community here. But they are struggling. My boss, told me that his parish is not meeting budget...by a long shot. The lower to middle class parishes are in big trouble. The largest parish in the state here is barely getting by, and it is middle to upper class. So, things are tough all over.

[executioner]

Yes we are independant but the SBC would prefer that all your mission work is done through them; they heavily discourage churches from doing missions without their input. Unlike 5 years ago the majority of our mission work is done on our own; we still send financial aid to the SBC but our funding has gotten smaller & smaller each year. I still feel the Catholics have the biggest mission aspect, but they have missed the boat on the Salvation part of the belief system. I do feel though the sexual abuse scandals that have hit them have dimished their status in the public's eye.

[brent]

I understand some of that. They are good at what they do, and there is a qualification of form and function. If something nasty ever goes down in a foreign country, the SBC has the ability to get their missionaries out of there. But, they don't officially mandate that you cannot do things on your own locally. That is none of their business anyway.

[executioner]

Our church over the last several years has taken some heat from people at the SBC for moving our mission funds out and into an independant account.

[executioner]

I understand some of that. They are good at what they do, and there is a qualification of form and function. If something nasty ever goes down in a foreign country, the SBC has the ability to get their missionaries out of there. But, they don't officially mandate that you cannot do things on your own locally. That is none of their business anyway.

Don't get me wrong because we are a church supports the SBC in everything, but we have found as a church we can be more effective controling our own mission funds and putting them to use in the local community. We know exactly where every penny of our funds are going.

[andreasbjerre]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

So you want to quit the race because you feel its a lost cause? God has never given you that option as a Christian.
Our Forefathers came to America because of big government, because government was involved in every aspect of their lives back in Europe; This includes anything from religious freedom, to supressing the poor, to high taxation and I believe my Forefathers were correct.
No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I did never say you should change your opinions, you are misunderstanding me. But I think we as christians are obligated to fight for other christian values as well. And if you ONLY focussing on abortion you will fail elsewhere as a christian. You can make a long pilosophical discussion about which way the money should go, but if you look at real life...I just think its terrible how low amount of free choices the lower class in the US population actually have when it comes to social security and education.
And as you say the bible doesn't say that the government should take care of the poor, I would say: The bible neither say that religion and politics should be blended the way it does in the US. My point is: You can not say ONE truth about christianitys look at different political systems. So I may prefer the european model, you may prefer the american, but please dont abuse Jesus and make him a hostage in that discussion. Does not say you do, but just wanted to make the point because I think its important...

[gman]

I think the lower class in America still has the free choice to work really hard, multiple jobs if necessary, and get out of the lower class. People still do it. The problem is that they have the Gov't their giving them lots of handouts, telling them they can't do any better, and making it easier for them to stay in the lower class. Then they hold them hostage come election time, by telling them not to vote for candidate X because he or she wants to take away the freebies. I feel the Gov't needs to be phased out of the welfare business because for the most part it lacks any morality, and is full of corruption. It's also a huge conflict of interest.

[brent]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

So you want to quit the race because you feel its a lost cause? God has never given you that option as a Christian.
Our Forefathers came to America because of big government, because government was involved in every aspect of their lives back in Europe; This includes anything from religious freedom, to supressing the poor, to high taxation and I believe my Forefathers were correct.
No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.

I did never say you should change your opinions, you are misunderstanding me. But I think we as christians are obligated to fight for other christian values as well. And if you ONLY focussing on abortion you will fail elsewhere as a christian. You can make a long pilosophical discussion about which way the money should go, but if you look at real life...I just think its terrible how low amount of free choices the lower class in the US population actually have when it comes to social security and education.
And as you say the bible doesn't say that the government should take care of the poor, I would say: The bible neither say that religion and politics should be blended the way it does in the US. My point is: You can not say ONE truth about christianitys look at different political systems. So I may prefer the european model, you may prefer the american, but please dont abuse Jesus and make him a hostage in that discussion. Does not say you do, but just wanted to make the point because I think its important...

Personally, I don't care if it is legal to kill babies, drink, smoke or do drugs for medicinal purposes. I don't have to do it. Christian's can't have it both ways. They can't expect to put limitations on ungodly people without giving up something they are in favor of.

[executioner]

I think the lower class in America still has the free choice to work really hard, multiple jobs if necessary, and get out of the lower class. People still do it. The problem is that they have the Gov't their giving them lots of handouts, telling them they can't do any better, and making it easier for them to stay in the lower class. Then they hold them hostage come election time, by telling them not to vote for candidate X because he or she wants to take away the freebies. I feel the Gov't needs to be phased out of the welfare business because for the most part it lacks any morality, and is full of corruption. It's also a huge conflict of interest.

Phasing out is putting it lightly; They should cease it within a year. The government would save billions!!! This could be a way to get the illegals to go back home, by making us citizens getting out there and getting a job even if it means working in a kitchen, construction, and yard work; by doing this it will make everyone get a job because of no monetary options coming from the government. This will benefit us in other ways because I believe the cost of living of rent, food, gas, and medical bills will have to be reduced.
BTW did you know that at the end of 2011 that Asian illegals outnumber Hispanic illegals that are here in the U.S. and they are finding that the majority of them are coming by ships docking in British Columbia Canada and gaining entrance through Washington, Idaho, & Montana.

[gman]

I think the lower class in America still has the free choice to work really hard, multiple jobs if necessary, and get out of the lower class. People still do it. The problem is that they have the Gov't their giving them lots of handouts, telling them they can't do any better, and making it easier for them to stay in the lower class. Then they hold them hostage come election time, by telling them not to vote for candidate X because he or she wants to take away the freebies. I feel the Gov't needs to be phased out of the welfare business because for the most part it lacks any morality, and is full of corruption. It's also a huge conflict of interest.

Phasing out is putting it lightly; They should cease it within a year. The government would save billions!!! This could be a way to get the illegals to go back home, by making us citizens getting out there and getting a job even if it means working in a kitchen, construction, and yard work; by doing this it will make everyone get a job because of no monetary options coming from the government. This will benefit us in other ways because I believe the cost of living of rent, food, gas, and medical bills will have to be reduced.
BTW did you know that at the end of 2011 that Asian illegals outnumber Hispanic illegals that are here in the U.S. and they are finding that the majority of them are coming by ships docking in British Columbia Canada and gaining entrance through Washington, Idaho, & Montana.

As you said in the other thread, Obama must be stopped. Many people might think so, but he is not representative of the opposing point of view on how to make America strong again; growing the economy, creating jobs, lowering energy costs, etc, etc. He is the guy who wants to fundamentally transform America, his own words, into a Marxist type society where the Gov't controls, subsidizes, and guarantees everything. That is not America, and I don't personally see how it is financially viable. I'll vote for the baseball glove, every day, and twice on Sunday.