I Love Seeing Justice

[brent]

Has anyone ever visited Crystal Cathedral?

Yes. Unfortunately I used to work in Garden Grove and had to see it daily.

[CatNamedManny]

God obviously doesn't have to do anything I ask Him, but I know he honors His Word and Jesus said plainly in John 14:14 ask anything in my name and I will do it. At least we agree there are gifts of healing. Then according to 1 cor 12:31 I will covet earnestly the higher gifts. Psalms 91 says with long life he will satisfy me and show me his salvation. I'll stand on that. God will reveal where I, or anyone else, has gone wrong doctrinally at the "bema seat."

Then how do you explain those who ask for healing and do not receive it? It seems the natural step from a position such as this is to fall into the Pentecostal trap of dismissing those who are not healed/cannot heal others/cannot speak in tongues/etc. as lacking enough faith to do or receive these things, which to me is one of the most odious things that can be done to another believer.

I think Brent is correct here: that healings can and do occur, and that we should ask for them, but that ultimately the sovereign God will determine whether our health is his will. Otherwise what you're arguing is exactly what I've heard from "health and wealth" preachers.

[bakersfieldpethead]

So are you calling those who have the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues liars for saying they are filled?

I’ll admit there has been a lot of damage done to the Pentecostal movement, mostly done by Televangelists and Mega Churches, those who substitute the real thing with being in the flesh. But I have grown up around those who have held on and have done things the right way, I’ve seen the real deal, I’ve witnessed the Holy Ghost falling in Church and it is nothing like you see on TV, I have heard the Lord give messages through tongues and Interpretation, and God has called me out in times past with people who didn’t know my personal life and have read my life right down like a book.

All I can say, is don’t knock it unless you’ve tried it. No since in saying something is wrong, just because you're afraid of it.

[brent]

1. Tongues and such are not the same thing. Nor are they the norm as practiced by your churches/denominations incorrectly. I have been in hundreds of denominational and non-denom churches practicing tongues. I have mixed for many of the big name guys on TV. I have yet to experience ONE practicing biblically, in the presence of believers only, with no more than three, one at a time, with interpretation.

I heard a radio program on BOT radio talking about this. The well known scholar recorded someone speaking in tongues and sent it to about five of the top, most visible people in that movement. He recorded their interpretations. No two people interpreted the same message the same way. Is God the author of confusion? Is God sending mixed messages? I don't think so. I think God has sent his message already and men just like to try to mess it up.

2. Healing. How then do we account for the millions of believers who die in pain, from sickness and disease in Africa? "By his stripes (wounds) they are healed." Is God a liar? Did they have to ask for something already done? Wresting the scripture confuses things. All they have to do is ask? Really?

[ErioL]

God obviously doesn't have to do anything I ask Him, but I know he honors His Word and Jesus said plainly in John 14:14 ask anything in my name and I will do it. At least we agree there are gifts of healing. Then according to 1 cor 12:31 I will covet earnestly the higher gifts. Psalms 91 says with long life he will satisfy me and show me his salvation. I'll stand on that. God will reveal where I, or anyone else, has gone wrong doctrinally at the "bema seat."

Then how do you explain those who ask for healing and do not receive it? It seems the natural step from a position such as this is to fall into the Pentecostal trap of dismissing those who are not healed/cannot heal others/cannot speak in tongues/etc. as lacking enough faith to do or receive these things, which to me is one of the most odious things that can be done to another believer.

I think Brent is correct here: that healings can and do occur, and that we should ask for them, but that ultimately the sovereign God will determine whether our health is his will. Otherwise what you're arguing is exactly what I've heard from "health and wealth" preachers.

There is one sentiment presented throughout your post: "I interpret the Bible based on other people's experience." You know, theres a lot of stuff that happens that we will never understand, certainly on this side of things. If someone gets saved and then goes and screws up, they don't come back to God and say "man your salvation thing sure was a screw-up! Look what I did!" We realize its a process, we realize what the weak link in the chain was. But when it comes to anything else, people will say "I prayed THREE months for healing (maybe years even) and NOTHING happened, God you really screwed up!" We as humans are so fickle. Thats not faith. Do not interpret God's word based on so-and-so's experience.

[separateunion]

There is one sentiment presented throughout your post: "I interpret the Bible based on other people's experience."

Uh...where?

[brent]

It's funny how people try to isolate the realities of life, as if they do not exist, to prove a doctrine based on ONE misinterpreted scripture used out of context, and then accuse other people of trying to interpret the bible experiencially. Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black?

My sister burned her hand when she was little. Her name-it-claim-it-grandmother kept praying over her, and telling her to keep saying, "It doesn't hurt in the name of Jesus", and "I am healed in the name of Jesus". Guess what? She was not healed. Her hand had an owie for a long time. My dad asked her if it still hurt. Of course it did. Why? God's laws of physics were working. She got a burn. She reaped what she sowed, partaking of another law of God. Pain is built into us as a warning system. Asking God to turn off what he designed in is not his will. People who feel no pain usually die by the age of 25 (according to a recent study). So while, it would suit her immediate need not to reap the pain of the burn and the future need to not have a scar, God thought otherwise by keeping his universal laws in place.

BTW, all my sister learned from her name-it-claim-it nutjob relatives is that she must have done something wrong to hack God off, God is mean, and that her grandma taught her to lie to herself.

I guess someone needs to tell John Schlitt to read the bible to Dan. He is sick, in a hospital in Jerusalem. All he needed to do was ask God. That sure would have been cheaper too. I wish Christians would read the bible and figure this stuff out like the Pentecostals have.

I wonder if there are any stats on the percentage of sick Pentecostals and Charismatics vs. Baptists and Catholics.

[CatNamedManny]

So are you calling those who have the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues liars for saying they are filled?

I’ll admit there has been a lot of damage done to the Pentecostal movement, mostly done by Televangelists and Mega Churches, those who substitute the real thing with being in the flesh. But I have grown up around those who have held on and have done things the right way, I’ve seen the real deal, I’ve witnessed the Holy Ghost falling in Church and it is nothing like you see on TV, I have heard the Lord give messages through tongues and Interpretation, and God has called me out in times past with people who didn’t know my personal life and have read my life right down like a book.

All I can say, is don’t knock it unless you’ve tried it. No since in saying something is wrong, just because you're afraid of it.

I'm referring to those who judge others who do not experience what they do; I'm making no judgments about those who do the experiencing.

Again, my point was that those who argue that God WILL heal you (without conditions) if only you claim his promises and have enough faith are implicitly judging the faith of those who claim his promises and ask for healing yet receive none. In many cases, the judgment moves from merely implicit to disturbingly explicit, and I find that deeply problematic. We can try to dismiss this as interpreting the Bible based on others' experiences and fall back on protestations of humanity's ultimate ignorance of holy matters, but that strikes me as a handy tool for sweeping away significant contradictions between a given belief and an abundance of evidence about how God actually works in his world (never mind the contradictory scriptural evidence Brent has already given).

[ErioL]

So are you calling those who have the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues liars for saying they are filled?

I’ll admit there has been a lot of damage done to the Pentecostal movement, mostly done by Televangelists and Mega Churches, those who substitute the real thing with being in the flesh. But I have grown up around those who have held on and have done things the right way, I’ve seen the real deal, I’ve witnessed the Holy Ghost falling in Church and it is nothing like you see on TV, I have heard the Lord give messages through tongues and Interpretation, and God has called me out in times past with people who didn’t know my personal life and have read my life right down like a book.

All I can say, is don’t knock it unless you’ve tried it. No since in saying something is wrong, just because you're afraid of it.

I'm referring to those who judge others who do not experience what they do; I'm making no judgments about those who do the experiencing.

Again, my point was that those who argue that God WILL heal you (without conditions) if only you claim his promises and have enough faith are implicitly judging the faith of those who claim his promises and ask for healing yet receive none. In many cases, the judgment moves from merely implicit to disturbingly explicit, and I find that deeply problematic. We can try to dismiss this as interpreting the Bible based on others' experiences and fall back on protestations of humanity's ultimate ignorance of holy matters, but that strikes me as a handy tool for sweeping away significant contradictions between a given belief and an abundance of evidence about how God actually works in his world (never mind the contradictory scriptural evidence Brent has already given).

I have known people that I esteemed very highly and considered very Godly, but yet died young of cancer. Yet I still believe God's Word. I will not judge the Word based on others experiences. That is walking by sight. Nor will I judge them for having "weak" faith. The fact is, I don't know why many things happen. I can only live and operate based on God's Word. So, while I believe God has provided for healing and that it is available through faith, I agree that it is a problem when people "judge" others based on their lack of "results." That type of mentality is never profitable.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I may have seemed a little judgmental, so I apologize if I came across that way. I do not fault those who have died but yet believed for their healing. But yet that dosn't mean we stop believing. The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please Him (God).

God can’t lead us if we’re not willing to follow, but that has nothing to do with claiming his promises, but there again…if we are truly following God and are in tune with his will, then at some point in our life we’re going to want to claim his promises, they are a benefit to serving Him. Now if God wants us to do something and we don’t, then wouldn’t that be classified as disobedience?

I’m not saying in anyway that the main focal point of Christianity is healing, it isn’t. Salvation is the message that we must be preaching, and these people who go forth and say that they have a healing ministry and that’s all they do and there is no call to salvation or the message of Christ and Him Crucified then they are scripturally wrong.

I’ve seen Christians give up on their death bead saying “I just want to go Home,” and they die. But I’ve also seen Christians healed who kept the faith and when it seemed like nothing was going to change, they were healed. One thing you have to look at is the attitude of those in the Bible, they had the mind set that God will deliver me, but even if He doesn’t I will still serve Him. Some people, don’t get to that point, and they struggle sometimes saying “If I don’t get what I want, I’ll never set a foot in another Church again.” That’s the wrong attitude to have.

God’s Will is ultimate and is first, and I believe he wants us to believe and trust in him to take care of our situation, no matter what. Hey if I had my choice I would be in Heaven right now, why in the world would I want to stay down here, except for the fact that if God still wants to use me here, then I’m all for it.

God will work according to your faith, one person can believe for strength to go through his own sickness,
another person can believe God to heal his own body, and another person will believe God to guide the doctors hands and for a fast recovery. I’ve seen it all happen, I know the power of God and what God is capable of doing and if he created this body, then he is the best to know how to fix this body.

But God’s is ultimately in control; at some point man is going to die. The only choice we have in the matter is where we go after we’re gone, and that’s where salvation is the key to it all.

[bakersfieldpethead]

“I have yet to experience ONE practicing biblically, in the presence of believers only, with no more than three, one at a time, with interpretation.”

Then I invite you to my Church. The people I have grown up around has always taught that you do not put words in the mouth of God, you do not say thus said the Lord, when the Lord didn’t say.

We have been taught the Biblical way that no more than three, one at a time, with interpretation, only by the moving of the Holy Ghost. I will say that there are instances where there has been no interpretation and that is where a person who is disobedient doesn’t deliver the message, and I have seen the pastor relate the importance to the congregation of being obedient to the Holy Ghost.

But I too have been in other Churches where it has been nothing but the flesh, and I fear that that those who have toyed with other peoples lives by putting words in the mouth of God are in grave danger.

True, but not so funny story: There was a Church I believe down in the Bible belt area where a member of the Church (In the Flesh) stood up and said (without Tongues), “Thus sayth the Lord, as in the day of Abraham when I sent him to deliver my Children out of Israel, so shall I lead you out of your trouble” and then they sat down and service continued, then a few moments they stood up again and shouted “Thus sayth the Lord, I was wrong it was Moses, not Abraham”.

People need to be careful!!

“I heard a radio program on BOT radio talking about this. The well known scholar recorded someone speaking in tongues and sent it to about five of the top, most visible people in that movement. He recorded their interpretations. No two people interpreted the same message the same way. Is God the author of confusion? Is God sending mixed messages? I don't think so. I think God has sent his message already and men just like to try to mess it up.”

There again, this where many “evangelist” or “Televangelist” or "Ministers" are in the flesh and are in no way being used in the spirit.

God is NOT the author of confusion, you’ll find that those who are truly in line with the Word of God, those who are in tune with what God is truly doing are preaching the same message and that message is not God’s going to bring us money, God’s message has been for the Church to be ready, do what we are to be doing, spreading the Gospel, We’re fixing to face some tough things and it’s important we don’t fall by the way side and if we’re not ready we could be left out of what God’s trying to do.